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Any D&D/D20

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[Rolan7]

That's the sort of thing a genius-level rogue ought to be doing, maybe?  Pull a Doctor Who, invent a bizarre solution (but not constantly, as to upstage the rest of the party).

Even with Complete Scoundrel, our occasional rogues have suffered compared to magic casters and Tome of Battle warriors.  Surely this is their niche, occasionally providing outlandish solutions to stationary defenses with epic or near-epic skill checks.

[Neonivek]

This whole thing reminds me of when I ran the Castle Forlorn module in Ravenloft, and the very first thing one player tried to do was construct a hand grenade right there on the spot, to throw into a suspicious lake. Essentially trying to "blow up" Loch Ness so they can see the monster swimming around. Started rattling off all these compounds he could potentially scrounge from the environment.

His intelligence was 12. I think he was a fighter.

Or the guy who maintained he simply didn't believe in ghosts, even after one aged him 25 years or so. He signed up to play a gothic horror version of D&D, and then went with "I don't believe in ghosts, in game or in real life, because science."

Some people are dead set on trying to take the fun out of gaming.

What is kind of funny is...

In his mind he is playing something like Batman, not believing in the supernatural because of his logical mind.

In reality he is playing something like an offensive southern stereotype, not believing in simple fact because it gets in the way of a printed out doctrine of beliefs.

I mean... Ghosts are kind of an established scientific fact... and to go "I don't believe in ghosts because of science!" kind of makes you an idiot in continuity

[Rolan7]

In reality he is playing something like an offensive southern stereotype, not believing in simple fact because it gets in the way of a printed out doctrine of beliefs.

I mean... Ghosts are kind of an established scientific fact... and to go "I don't believe in ghosts because of science!" kind of makes you an idiot in continuity

Whew lad
But I do like the idea- I don't think it appears in DND, but it was a great part of TOME and maybe Zangband - of an Unbeliever, so committed to unbelief, that they were surrounded by a real anti-magic aura.
It's silly, but DND is silly.

[wierd]

THat's disc-world level silly though.

[SOLDIER First]

It's like people being choosy about what the Bible says.

"I don't believe in ghosts because I am a man of science."

"Science proved ghosts exist decades ago."

"Oh, but not that science."

[Rolan7]

This whole thing reminds me of when I ran the Castle Forlorn module in Ravenloft, and the very first thing one player tried to do was construct a hand grenade right there on the spot, to throw into a suspicious lake. Essentially trying to "blow up" Loch Ness so they can see the monster swimming around. Started rattling off all these compounds he could potentially scrounge from the environment.

His intelligence was 12. I think he was a fighter.

Or the guy who maintained he simply didn't believe in ghosts, even after one aged him 25 years or so. He signed up to play a gothic horror version of D&D, and then went with "I don't believe in ghosts, in game or in real life, because science."

Some people are dead set on trying to take the fun out of gaming.

To be fair, someone in denial about the existence of ghosts in a game that very definitely contains ghosts could be amusing.

A significant part of Ravenloft, as I understand it from TheSpoonyOne is...

Gods cannot reach you here, yet divine powers still work.  They're just coming from... somewhere else.  For others' designs.

[nenjin]

More he was just doing it to suck the fun out of a supernatural adventure. The whole module was about ghosts, family curses, TIME TRAVEL, interacting with different time periods overlapping each other...it was rad. And the rest of the party was terrified of this ghost just running up on them constantly. This guy though? Nahhhhhhhhhhhh. Aging touch attack, life steal? Fiiinnnnnnneeeeee. He was more than happy to fight a Werewolf, or Scottish Goblins, or that tree with severed heads.....but ghosts? Nope. "I ain't scurred." What a fucking killjoy.

[wierd]

I dont play that way, but when I see a perfectly workable solution given what is available, I dont like being shown some batshit rule in the rulebook. If there is some even half-assed reason behind the rule other than "capricious lawyering", I can begrudge it, but often times it is just "No, that's just the rule", which I have great difficulty accepting. (Mostly because my brain sees the apparently not-obvious-to-others consequences that such rules would introduce, which result in absurdities. I know if I pressed on how those consequences would result in absurdities, it would only piss people off, but it still rankles my skin what fierce.)

This is decidedly NOT the same thing as "Oh hi there, 'totally not a ghost', It does not matter that I can have a magical object that uses your kind like an energizer battery, I refuse to believe that you exist. Thank you, have a nice day."

[nenjin]

No, the previous science man was talking about making a grenade and made the exact same argument you have, that "it'd be common knowledge." Although the fallacy really rests in availability. Maybe not so much in an alchemy lab, but on the shores of a murky lake surrounded by scree? And even if it's not out of the realm of possibility, as a GM, I get annoyed with "McGuyvers" who want to derail a perfectly enjoyable narrative with justifying their ultra-specific solution to a problem which generally does not involve the rest of the party at all. Of course you can just hand waive the argument for brevity's sake but that's how you end up with Acid Hand Grenades in D&D.

And you know, when someone actually makes an alchemist, I have no problem doing that. But when someone just has a meta-brainwave and comes up with something they don't have the skill to make or the materials on hand.....nah, I'm not going to go chase down the logical requirements of granting them their wish, when the rest of the party is sitting there rolling their eyes. Pouring vinegar into a flask is one thing....grinding up sulphur and whatever else harvested from the landscape and finding flasks and making wicks.....at some point it's overreaching. Especially when it'd be an "easy" solution to a troubling problem, cause then it smacks of circumvention, which is my greatest annoyance as a GM because I hate playing the "how many logical holes do I have to plug so my PCs will actually do something cool" game. That's what I say it's kind of anti-fun. It feels like a video game solution to a role playing problem, especially when someone raises the Science! flag.

[wierd]

Notice, I said "what is available".

I offered some alternative "clever" solutions, such as conjured water + heavy ice spell, and "burning hands" through a crack in the door (if you have the time and patience)

Rule lawyering comes into play when somebody snarks out "Burning hands is a ranged attack, it says right in the description of the vortex that ranged attacks get penalty of XYZ!!"  rather than accepting that the burning hands are doing NOTHING to the source of the vortex. It is attacking the bones at the range of the burning hands effect, to remove the bones from the vortex-- OR contemplating how actual mundane physics would affect the burning hands flame jet when introduced to a whirling vortex like that. (or how the high airflow would rapidly combust the bone fragments suspended in it) It basically boils down to "I don't want to think like that, this world operates on ignorance, not knowledge."

I can see making said hand grenade if they have 1) the requisite skills, 2) the requisite raw materials 3) have the action point time required to prepare the object, and 4) meet the skill throw.

Otherwise? No.  For an already created item (acid bomb), where you just have to meet the throwing check, it is a whole other animal-- It boils down to "No, my happy bubble of ignorance will not accept your well reasoned methodology. I will invent bullshit reason why it cant happen, damn the consequences, shut up."

[nenjin]

FWIW, this is 2nd ed I'm talking about where a lot of this was not mapped out in any way, whereas later editions of D&D accounted for things like grenades, creation, crafting...in a more detailed fashion.

[Neonivek]

Sometimes the idea is really half-baked but they are expecting full results.

Like tying up a dragon in nylon rope... I don't QUITE think it will work out for you!

[wierd]

Nylon rope?  In a dark age setting? Pshaw!  Alchemy did not even come close to the needed theory required to make nylon.

It would be a stretch to have rayon (processed cellulose), but polyamide? No. Sorry. Not seeing it.

[nenjin]

Sometimes the idea is really half-baked but they are expecting full results.

Like tying up a dragon in nylon rope... I don't QUITE think it will work out for you!

Which when you tell the group the grenade they just spent 20 table minutes trying to make is little more than a glorified smoke bomb......yeah that doesn't go over too well with anyone.

[Neonivek]

Sometimes the idea is really half-baked but they are expecting full results.

Like tying up a dragon in nylon rope... I don't QUITE think it will work out for you!

Which when you tell the group the grenade they just spent 20 table minutes trying to make is little more than a glorified smoke bomb......yeah that doesn't go over too well with anyone.

Yeah but speaking as a player... sometimes having the DM just go with whatever you do... Feels disingenuous. Like you didn't accomplish anything. It definitely will keep you fooled at first for a bit.

Not that having them be horribly against you even when what you did should work for what is often pedantic reasons "I am arbitrarily going to remove your cover bonus because your large, even though you are more then covered and that would be giving you a flat penalty in all situations" (DANG IT! I totally had cover in those trees!)

I guess it is because I want to feel accomplished rather then being given a bone. Like I actually did something smart.