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[BlackFlyme]

Yea, the Pathfinder rules for monsters with class levels reads like an afterthought.

You use the creature's Challenge Rating as their base level, then just throw class levels on top of that, treating the sum of their CR and their class levels as their new CR. For every three class levels it has, give them one bonus class level, to a maximum number of bonus class levels of half their base Challenge Rating.

Though the rules for monstrous cohorts and companions throws all of this out the window and replaces them with rules made of nerf.

[Rolan7]

Which is pretty absurd.  CR in 3.5e means "what level should a party of FOUR be to defeat this solo".  VERY different from its Effective Character Level (ECL), since it's based on a party fighting a monster instead of a monster joining a party.  The 3.5e writers knew that some powers are much more powerful in player hands...  except when they forgot.

@Neonivek
I always assumed (I made a point of not reading the DMG as a player) that monsters could be dynamically advanced in HD to boost their HP and BAB.  I based that on how certain monsters get larger if their HD reaches a certain amount, labelled as their "advancement" in the d20srd.  I assumed that monsters without that property could also advance in HD/BAB, they just wouldn't gain size.

[Neonivek]

It kind of makes 5es rules on Monsters with Class levels... the most intelligent by far...

SURE it is "do it yourself" but on the other hand I feel like it is 100 times more accurate then 3.5 and Pathfinder combined.

@Neonivek
I always assumed (I made a point of not reading the DMG as a player) that monsters could be dynamically advanced in HD to boost their HP and BAB.  I based that on how certain monsters get larger if their HD reaches a certain amount, labelled as their "advancement" in the d20srd.  I assumed that monsters without that property could also advance in HD/BAB, they just wouldn't gain size.

It has serious issues... compare the Unicorn versus the Celestial Charger

They are both Unicorns... but the Celestial Charger is a heroic Unicorn and is basically an expansion of the Unicorn.

[Rolan7]

The Celestial Charger is ECL 16.  8HD, fair enough, but then +8LA.  A unicorn is ECL 8, 4HD+4LA.

I certainly haven't done the math, but I'd expect a base unicorn with 7 levels of cleric (by srd) and an extra HD to be roughly comparable to the Celestial Charger.  DR/10 magic is pretty worthless, as per common sense (and savage species, as I recall).  The entire celestial template, which Celestial Charger seems to be aping, is mostly useless.

[Neonivek]

Damage reduction / common thing

Is probably something that has always rubbed me the wrong way.

In 5e at LEAST damage reduction/magic is something that could conceivably pop up (and as such they REALLY improved it)...

But in 3.5 unless you were at incredibly low levels... you had a magic weapon.

It made it feel very pointless.

I actually liked Damage reduction / Blank. The monster was resistant to weak blows and could conceivably shrug off minimal rolls.. as well in 4e they had multiple ways to get through damage reduction.

Damage Reduction/Magic really might as well not exist... the ONLY things that proxy that are physical spells.

[Rolan7]

My group accidentally played as if DR/cold iron and such worked against energy damages.  (We had a couple of fey in the party for a while).
Turns out energy damage bypasses all DR, but we didn't know.
But yeah absolutely agreed Neonivek, about DR/magic.  Pretty much a joke.

[Flying Dice]

Well actually Barbarians in 5e use Constitution for their AC along with dexterity. But that is to allow them to go armorless.

Strength, Dexterity, and Con can be used as a "casting stat" but it would have to function differently then normal.

I can picture a Con caster as being a sort of tank.

Yeah, but that's acceptable for the same reason that Monk WIS to AC is: it's compensating for something the class can't do because of flavor, rather than allowing them to cast from a stat that they'd be boosting anyways. Agreed on the image, though; it'd make for an interesting Knight variant maybe.

[Neonivek]

Mind you surprise surprise Monks in 3.5 were a flat out inferior class that had to find ways to weasel out of their class limitations or outright mid/max munchkin to make them work.

Barbarians using Constitution is a rather sizable mercy for 5e.

[Flying Dice]

Oh, yeah. Unhouseruled 3.5 Monks were basically worthless, and PF didn't get them right the first time around either. Low-tier HD and no full BAB on a melee combatant says to me that someone was drunk when they designed the class, never mind the issues with proficiency and weapon enhancements for Unarmed Strike.

[Neonivek]

Oh, yeah. Unhouseruled 3.5 Monks were basically worthless, and PF didn't get them right the first time around either. Low-tier HD and no full BAB on a melee combatant says to me that someone was drunk when they designed the class, never mind the issues with proficiency and weapon enhancements for Unarmed Strike.

Kind of a shame because I love their concept... Beyond just using their fists (ignoring that 3.5 and Pathfinder make using their fists a BAD idea... for dumb reasons)... They are kind of like Anti-mages and Saving throw kings. If a Monster had a ability that messed with the party chances are the Monk would stay up.

Or rather they are by far the most flexible class in terms of always having a way to contribute to a fight. Pathfinder further augmented this by also making them unparalelle in terms of maneuvers... Too bad Maneuvers either suck or are flat out overpowered in pathfinder.

The Brawler while far superior to the Monk feels more like "What if a Monk was a competent fighter?" and strips out everything not related to that.

[UXLZ]

In 5E monks are sort of a utility class as well. I mean, Tongue of Sun and Moon and immunity to aging is cool, but unless the DM often uses languages the party can't speak, or the campaign goes for 40 years, they're... Pretty much totally useless.

They also get some nutso stuff though for combat. Empty Body is INSANE.

[Gentlefish]

DR/magic is fine though. In most campaign settings, -you're- the odd ones out. DR/magic isn't necessarily meant as a blockade for the players, it's to establish an in-world idea. Honestly, how many mooks do you come up against actually have magic weapons most of the time, at least in the early-to-mid levels?

[highmax28]

If I wasn't in a pathfinder game with the DM of the year (in my opinion, its up in the air for others, though some of you seem to like his ideas for his world) I wouldn't play it. It rolls on making the game too easy, removing most challenges. As a ranger, pretty much if anything I fight is my favored enemy at level 20, they save or die every time I hit them (and I can hit 4 times right now just at level 6, and I'm on my way to getting 5). Change that to WHATEVER I'M FIGHTING for a slayer and its broken as hell.

The one thing I wished they would do for pathfinder is finish the warlock page. Its pretty much the aborted fetus laying on the site I use

Damage reduction / common thing

Is probably something that has always rubbed me the wrong way.

In 5e at LEAST damage reduction/magic is something that could conceivably pop up (and as such they REALLY improved it)...

But in 3.5 unless you were at incredibly low levels... you had a magic weapon.

It made it feel very pointless.

I actually liked Damage reduction / Blank. The monster was resistant to weak blows and could conceivably shrug off minimal rolls.. as well in 4e they had multiple ways to get through damage reduction.

Damage Reduction/Magic really might as well not exist... the ONLY things that proxy that are physical spells.

To be fair, in 5e, they made resistances do half damage right off the bat, which makes barbarian the best class in the game as a solo fighter in the early game with rage. Throw in that some lower level challenges/boss monsters have immunities (which would've spelled the death of many of my party members if I didn't make the werebear they were planning on fighting only resistant to it, they would've all died cause no one but the barbarian had silver and the paladin ran out of spell uses, and the only casters were the sorcerer and the bard who was tied up and in werewolf form). This also lead to the party killing CR 5 werebear who only survived one round because the sorcerer did half his HP and the barbarian did the other half anyway.

One thing I like i 5e that I saw so far is the DM handbook and the PHB have finally shed some light on downtime activities and what they can do, as well as having things not as stupidly cheap as usual (example: 4e platemail is 50gp and cna be bought right off the bat, making the first level paladin with a heavy shield have such a high AC that in order to hit him I had to include enemies that targeted will/reflex/fort defences). Its much more balenced in 4e, but they also made it so that money isn't inflated to hell and back, so I fucked up and gave the party the amonut of gold you'd get in a 4e game, but they have so much money now that looking in the DMG and the PHB they can afford enough housing at level 4 to own their own households. So I decided I'm secretly gonig to have a problem in my world be is someone is summoning fools gold (like the ritual) and found a way to extend its duration. So after some time, the party is going to randomly lose money at certain points of the adventure and have to deal with this problem. Once they fix this, there's going to be a big depression in this world as no one has real money anymore and then I can finally fix the economy

[UXLZ]

"Oh, hey, guys, you know that 50'000 gold you've been saving up for three months to buy that airship with?"

"Yeah, what about it? We've been looking forward to that, and we're almost there, so hopefully next encounter will give us enough."

"Weeelll, most of it sort of vanished. You now have 500."

They're gonna like that.

[Neonivek]

In 5E monks are sort of a utility class as well. I mean, Tongue of Sun and Moon and immunity to aging is cool, but unless the DM often uses languages the party can't speak, or the campaign goes for 40 years, they're... Pretty much totally useless.

They also get some nutso stuff though for combat. Empty Body is INSANE.

5e Monks are not only FINALLY good fighters (and at level 14 they become saving throw-gods) but they still are amazing at ensuring that they are always useful in every fight. Even able to run up and down walls, across liquids, and other surfaces.

But a HUGE HUGE boost to Monks is that all their powers are called after they have made an attack rather than before. So no longer do you call a stunning fist, miss, and then it is wasted.

And lets not forget... Poison is extremely common and a damage type. It means that Monks don't take poison damage nor do they receive the poisoned status effect (Which is NASTY)

Heck if you wanted to metagame the best Monk would flat out be a Red Dragonkin Monk. At level 10 you are immune or resistant to the vast majority of the damage in the game.