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[NullForceOmega]

I've had a lot of good players, and redeemed a few bad ones.  I've also had players walk away, tho' not to many, just a handful.

[UXLZ]

And as I said in the WTF thread, consequence is key. If the players decide not to investigate the eery abandoned castle by the edge of town and head elsewhere, it might end up being the lair of a necromancer who destroys the town, or a small portal to the Abyss is kept in its depths.

Actually, this is probably one of the most important things. MAKE INTERESTING NPCS. You want NPCs the players can connect to, so you can give consequences to their actions. If they've gotten really attached to this one NPC, maybe have a mistake of theirs kill them, or have them kidnapped, and so on.

[NullForceOmega]

Gods yes, NPCs are the key to good DMing, you have to have people that the PCs care about (whether they love them or hate them), so you can get them invested in the world.  The most amazing city ever envisioned will fail if all the inhabitants are cardboard cut-outs.

[Sergarr]

I would never believe that you, Neonivek, is a filthy railroading type of DM, obsesses about controlling your players in spite of their wishes, yet your responses in this thread seem to leave no doubt about it

I love players who roll with anything.

So in essence, you don't actually want players to have any agency at all.

Tell me, in this case, why do you even need players? Could you not tell the story you want to tell by yourself? Maybe what you actually want is to be a writer?

[NullForceOmega]

Watch the tone Sergarr, I'm not putting up with arguments here.  If you want to discuss this, be civil.

[Neonivek]

I would never believe that you, Neonivek, is a filthy railroading type of DM, obsesses about controlling your players in spite of their wishes, yet your responses in this thread seem to leave no doubt about it

I love players who roll with anything.

So in essence, you don't actually want players to have any agency at all.

Tell me, in this case, why do you even need players? Could you not tell the story you want to tell by yourself? Maybe what you actually want is to be a writer?

A player who rolls with anything isn't a player who "lacks agency" if anything it is the exact opposite.

A player who "rolls with anything" is one who when they have a set back, a problem, or an obstacle will seek to overcome it... instead of complain that they had any misfortune whatsoever.

The exact opposite is a player who threatens to quit because a chest didn't have any loot he could use.

My favorite player of all time was one who rolled with anything and he had nothing but agency... and I threw a LOT at him... but he always found a way out of it with panache (it was written into his bio that he was super cursed so I always had to find a way every session to kill him).

A player who just does whatever you say and doesn't complain is more of a wallflower.

---

As for me being a roalroady DM

It is more that my job as a DM is to have the best possible, the most fun game, for both myself and the players.

If a player decides that he wants to go to the beach... The beach isn't automatically an interesting place, it isn't "fun" just because the player decided it. It is fun because I go in there and make SURE that their trip to the beach is one they can be excited about.

If they are tired of the beach but have no excuse to leave... It is up to me to provide them with an excuse

I have to decide things from the background that a player doesn't see, doesn't get to look at to allow them to have fun.

I have to make these decisions based around what I think the players will enjoy and what they will decide to do... and sometimes this means I have to make a tough choice with circumventing a player decision because one player's derail is another character's "ENOUGH! already!"

But I also cannot ignore my own wishes and desires as well. So I will pepper games with things I personally enjoy.

Yeah everything I say sounds really bad... but every DM thinks about these things.

And yeah sometimes I wish I could just do something without always needing to put it in the wheels within wheels. Just ask my players "Hey, mind if we have a detour here? I'd like to spin this in a new direction for a bit" but that kind of dialog is considered taboo in games. Sometimes I wish I didn't even need to ask that I could just go "You teleport to candyland"

But having these urges isn't the same as acting upon them. I doubt there is a DM ALIVE who wouldn't have loved a "get out of bad DMing freecard" that let them do one huge detour... I'd call a DM a liar right to his face if he told me he never wanted to.

[NullForceOmega]

No, that's mostly the right attitude, some players don't care about the frills and want to jump into the action, some players want to butter up to the local dignitaries and play politics, some players just want to explore every nook and cranny to discover *anything* even remotely interesting, and as DM your job is to keep them functioning in game by providing what they need and directing them to your goals (if you even have any, my goals are always decided by player actions.)

And you have called me a liar, and I still think you lack the requisite experience to make that assertion.

[Neonivek]

Really NullForceOmega?

You never thought to yourself "Boy, would I love it if the players were in the desert right now"? You never thought "Dang, I know it makes no sense but I just want to put a dragon in here"

[NullForceOmega]

No, never, that isn't how I run my games, period.

[wierd]

Personally, I would invent "backpath" roads into the main scenario that employ their derail attempts.

Slipped into the back alley, chasing the prostitute, because you thought chasing tail would be more fun than saving the day? As the prostitute rounds the corner out of sight, you lose track of her, and instead notice a group of suspicious people picking the lock of the back door of the inn your friends are staying at.

Etc.

[Neonivek]

No, never, that isn't how I run my games, period.

That is astounding to me. I can't think of how one would avoid simply wanting to see or run something... even if it was contrary to what they were running.

I mean act upon it... sure I can fully picture a DM never doing it... Yet never having an interjecting thought is something else.

[wierd]

Because "RANDOM!" without some underlying reason, is game breaking, and not fun for the players?

Now, if you have some sensible plot device that creates RANDOM!, then by all means, have it activate at RANDOM! times--  but you need that plot device to make it sensible, and you shouldnt turn it on all the time.

[NullForceOmega]

I construct my games and worlds according to the thought process that is running through my head at the time, once the details are in place everything else about the world is determined by player action or lack thereof, if the players ignore something important, they have to deal with the fallout, if the players stumble onto something interesting they might just have created a whole new branch of story.  I don't have set plots, I don't bother with pre-fab dungeons, I build history so that my players have something to stand on while they shake the heavens.

[Neonivek]

It just is such an alien concept for me to think of someone who NEVER EVER has those thoughts. Ohh well I'll just drop it.

It doesn't matter if it is the right thing to do wierd. I am only speaking of the urge.

Like the urge to put peanut butter on pickles... You know it won't taste good... but you kind of want to see if it does.

---

I actually try to limit the amount of random "me" content in my games. I would certainly would LOVE to run a game that was more... "Me" flavored.

But I have no doubt in my mind that no one would like something that kind of had everything I like.

But... I am running a game soon... I could test that and start designing things the way "I like them" and in accordance to how I think the players will like it.

[NullForceOmega]

It's kind of the same reason I don't allow evil PCs (unless there is a good reason), my players are big damn heroes, and if I'm doing my job that's how they feel.