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Any D&D/D20

Shadowrun

World of Darkness

Palladium

Other (feel free to post about it)

[Dorsidwarf]

Is there ever a place for DM PCs or are they just universally awful?

1) If you have a small group/ never get to play and just play him like a regular PC. Be careful though
2) In hell

[Gentlefish]

3) No-one wants to run healer.

Seriously, this is the only -real- reason I'd run a DMPC. No-one wants to main healing? 'kay, pacifist Cleric of <Insert God/dess here> joins the party!

[Criptfeind]

Yeah, I've run a healer gmpc for important adventures where they didn't have the sustain. I also occasionally have thrown in a gmpc for like, an employer (or employee of the employer sticking around) but it's always pretty important to be careful with such things I think. If I run such a thing, I generally make them pretty helpless and more comedic relief then actual party member, and even then although it generally works out It's something I am afraid of, I've seen good games ruined in part by GMPCs....

[Jimmy]

If nobody wants to play healer, as a DM I'd just chuck a cure light wounds potion on each intelligent enemy and call it a day. Players can drink their wounds away, and it'd make sense for any intelligent creature to carry a few spare healing potions.

[scriver]

3. Don't use a DM NPC.

No, this is the absolute opposite of what he should do! The GM should play GMNPCs. What he shouldn't play is GMPCs.

* scriver pedantries away to safe distance!

Is there ever a place for DM NPCs or are they just universally awful?

Aside from the above example, a thing to keep in kind is that gmpc is an almost entirely negative term. A well run gmpc is unlikely to be called such.

Taken to it's core, a gmpc differs from all the other character the GM plays in that it is played along the other players, rather than against them. Simply put, it is a player character run by the GM. However, an NPC that simply follows the party around because, for example, they have a quest to escort said NPC is not necessarily a gmpc. Neither would a bodyguard or healer hired by the party to help out, even if said character is run by the gm and has a full/"normal" character sheet. There is a difference in involvement here that is important.

What really turns people against gmpcs is how common it is that bad GMs make them plot crucial and use them as a tool to string the other players around (often down the railroad, so to speak). This results in the players loosing their sense of agency and/or starting to feel like they are simply "along for the ride" and only side characters in the GMPC's story (particularly if the GM is also using the character to fulfil power fantasies at the players' expense).

[birdy51]

GMNPCS are technically ever present in their existence. ^.^

That said, if you are going to run a GMPC, don't let them outshine the real members of the party. They are the real heroes, so let them have their fun!

[Neonivek]

No you heard him no GMNPCs

So don't even think about having encounters...

Actually... wouldn't this be therapy?

[Jimmy]

Currently working on: Random Encounters

Per the 101 random encounter ideas, players hear a voice calling for help from the woods. They'll find a petrified rock troll with a glowing sword stuck through its chest, and a skeleton in a suit of mithral full plate held upside-down by its ankle in the rock troll's grasp. The voice is coming from the glowing sword, and it tells the players it's been stuck in the rock troll's chest ever since its last owner got caught fighting a rock troll as dawn broke over the horizon.

The sword will tell them to be very careful coming close because there's a monster lurking nearby that tries to ambush people who attempt to retrieve the sword. It will describe the creature in detail, explaining that it was specifically created to fight this type of monster. Players with high Perception will probably see the monster in question and we'll have combat commence.

The trick is, of course, that the petrified rock troll with the magic sword stuck in it is actually a mimic. Trying to pull the sword out will trigger combat with it, which if the players attempt to do during combat with the other monster will significantly increase the difficulty of the fight. The skeleton in the mithral full plate is real, of course, and represents the actual loot from the encounter.

[Harry Baldman]

So are the monster and the mimic working together, or is it more of a "birds picking things out of crocodile teeth" unspoken symbiosis?

Also, somewhat reminds me of this, which is also a pretty decent idea for a D&D random encounter.

[Jimmy]

The two are a paired team. The party's level 4, so it's a CR 4 Shriezyx that's been trained by the Mimic to attack humanoids that get close. As a Mimic gets considerable ranks in Knowledge: Dungeoneering, it would know pretty much all there is to know about manipulating the Int 3 Shriezyx into doing what it says, and since it's speaking to the party in Common, the Shriezyx can't understand it's bluffing them out by revealing its ally, since it only speaks Aklo. I also added the CR +0 Bioluminescence mutation to the Mimic so that it can emit light for the glowing sword by RAW.

[Neonivek]

As a suggestion if you have the time and will...

Ignore CR adjustments entirely... Ignore "Adding Classes to monsters" CR adjustements as well...

And just apply a new CR to monsters.

If there is one HUGE FREEKEN CREDIT I'll give to 5.0... It realized the old system was bogus.

[Jimmy]

That method screws up the process of awarding experience, though. I use the Pathfinder experience tables to award XP based on the CR of the encounter or trap, with my players aware that some optional challenges will award experience higher than average for higher CR monsters. I agree it's a flawed system in that a CR 10 Wizard is vastly more challenging than a CR 10 Commoner, but overall it's a decent rule of thumb, especially for pregenerated monsters. Their AC, hit points and saves are usually within the reasonable range for a party of the appropriate level, with only NPC character classes being outliers depending on the DM's investment into their customisation.

[Neonivek]

That method screws up the process of awarding experience, though. I use the Pathfinder experience tables to award XP based on the CR of the encounter or trap, with my players aware that some optional challenges will award experience higher than average for higher CR monsters. I agree it's a flawed system in that a CR 10 Wizard is vastly more challenging than a CR 10 Commoner, but overall it's a decent rule of thumb, especially for pregenerated monsters. Their AC, hit points and saves are usually within the reasonable range for a party of the appropriate level, with only NPC character classes being outliers depending on the DM's investment into their customisation.

Uhhhh...

What I meant was... Instead of applying CR adjustments to monsters for templates and class levels... Just give them the CR for their difficulty.

As for "It is a decent rule of thumb"... Unfortunately it isn't. The CRs when applying CR adjustments typically are no where close to their mark. Especially when templates overwrite the advantages of the creature it is applied to, are extra advantageous for that creature, or what have you.

Pathfinder's only grand advantage is for the most part... yeah even they realized it was bogus and applied to adjustments to the formula themselves. 1) Templates have multiple CR adjustments depending on the HD(or CR) of the base creature... and 2) Class levels only apply in full if the creature itself gets the full advantage.

It is why I praise 5e for going "Yeah, there are no CR Adjustments. Just find out their CR"

[Skyrunner]

How does one "find out a CR" for PF?

[Harry Baldman]

How does one "find out a CR" for PF?

I guess calculate their average damage output (factoring in the attack bonus), then compare that, saves and special abilities to creatures of varying CRs to figure out which one it's most comparable to?

Or, failing that, just eyeball it in comparison to things your PCs have been fighting thus far.