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[Neonivek]

Ahhh Con and Dex

Alchemist is a huge one albeit complicated. (actually I am probably wrong)

Fighter is excellent! (Give him a Bow and BAM!)

Rogue works given he only needs Dex and Con.

[BlackFlyme]

Alchemist is banned. DM doesn't like that class for various nonsensical reasons. Mostly aimed at how annoying it is to figure out whether or not a caster-related thing is allowed to work on one, and because he doesn't like a few discoveries, such as Mummification.

Non-Boltace Gunslingers aren't allowed either. Nor are Swashbucklers, even though Opportune-Parry-and-Riposte has been nerfed, which was this DM's complaint about them.

[Neonivek]

Then go Bow Fighter. Since Rangers would split your attribute pool too much.

And (and I am not going to argue it due to... reasons...) Fighters make better pure Archers then even Rangers can aspire to.

PLUS! I believe Fighter might actually get feats that apply to your blasts... But I'll have to check.

Kinetic blasts count as a type of weapon for the purpose of feats such as Weapon Focus.

Yep Fighter and Rogue = Amazing. (rogue is more tricky)

[BlackFlyme]

I would need a Conductive-Enchanted bow to use my blasts with them. Which would mean giving up being able to use Gather Energy, since my hands wouldn't be free. All appendages have to be free, it states.

Which is a weird requirement. A Vanaran or Tiefling would need their tails free. A Grippli would need their tongue free if they took the Agile Tongue feat. Technically, a bird would need to land so its wings are free. There's probably more weird examples if you look long enough. Like a Hydrokinetic squid needing all its tentacles free.

[Neonivek]

Go crossbow and use hand crossbow.

[highmax28]

Meanwhile, we are playing a Gestalted Mythic campaign. We are way OP even without optimization.

Mythic Champions basically get an extra move action at Tier 3 with Fleet Warrior, which allows you to make a Full-Attack-Action, while still being allowed to move up to their speed before or after.

I'm just wondering if their are any silly class combinations that would still work well mechanically. My Kineticist's Barbarian half isn't that great. Not much would go well with a Kineticist though, due to their playstyle.

Kineticist is fantastic by itself. I'm playing a fire one and I just harass the fuck out of everyone with touch attacks. Sadly, I'm pretty much Saitama from One Punch Man; everything dies so quickly that I just lose interest.

My turn rolls around, I either charge or I blast. Gestalt seems cool, but it doesn't seem to appeal to me honestly. The rules lawyer loves it, and I think one of the summoners we're fighting is a gestalt swashbuckler and paracosmos summoner, though I may be wrong on that.

Then again, the classes I WANT to play as end up getting shafted because they kind of suck and don't get better. Like after this campaign is done, we have a game where we are law enforcement professionals, and he happens to be the ex-convict who runs around with a sniper rifle that deals... I think it was 8^15 damage he said? And because of how he said he wants to roll with that character, he's gonna probably go against the ideals of how the party is (law enforcement), which means he's gonna but heads with everyone using chemical weapons and a death laser that can't be jammed or anything. I actually tried in several scenarios brought up to them, asking what would happen if X happens. He makes unkillable characters and forces us to be like that. My wizard has a habit of trapping and keeping people alive, but I'm stuck with a murderous psychopath who my character is probably going to try and arrest right off the bat for not helping us, and promptly get spanked by a sniper nuke launcher...

I really need to stop derailing this with how shitty this person is. Again, the brokenness isn't bad when you keep up, but when the characters tend to just want to kill everyone for the sake of doing it, and they can blow up the planet by spitting on it, why bother playing?

What is the main stat of a Kineticist?

Guy already said it, but what's also cool about them is they're unique with their elements. There is the standard 4 elements, fire/air/earth/water that do element things, aether, which is a telekenetic, void, which is negative energy based, and wood, which is completely terrible.

I tried making a 5e class based on it called an elementalist and in my first play test of it, I spanked myself in a CR2 battle with a single level 4 elementalist that used the equivalent of kinetic fist (changed it so it's elemental weapon but for fists, since I made weapons element specific and void has a limited form of the monk's martial arts and access to only shortswords and daggers), and because everything with the kineticist/my elementalist deals non-lethal damage to you, you can essentially kill yourself if you're not prepared.

In pathfinder, this isn't a problem because you can buy gear to enhance your con score and get extra Hp every level with the favoured class bonus. But in 5e, the most bonus HP you get is from tough(ness), and your scores cap out at 20. This means at higher levels, you are taking so much damage from the "burn" as its called, that you can use like 4 abilities before dropping like a sack of potatoes. I don't know how to fix it yet, but I may have it work just like spending ki points or however the Mystic works.

It's still a work in progress, but I'll post my thing for it tomorrow when I'm done adding junk to one of the elements. The reason being is that void got the shaft in the kineticist, which is sad, because it had the coolest abilities with gravity master and such. If it had more wild talents catered to it as much as aether, fire, water, earth and air did, it would probably be a Favorite to play. It's final ability is reverse gravity at will and you can change he direction that it sends people at will. So you can essentially throw people into walls and stuff and then drop them on the floor, letting gravity do all the work.

[Neonivek]

I am trying to think about how to make a Fighter Shine as a Kineticist

Which so far a fighter is great... but the bigger issue is the weapon training they get just flat out doesn't apply to Kinetic blast.

Armor Master and Mobile Fighter lose out on less for the combination.

[Jimmy]

Your acting like a strength rogue loses out on sneak attack damage.

A strength rogue gets it all. If a Strength rogue wants to be a sneaky SOB, he easily can.

Can I have a "Taking this personally" check? I have a feeling this is getting heated.

Nope, no personal feelings here, just comparing notes on character builds.

Strength Rogues don't lose out on Sneak Attack, but they do lose out on the other things I mentioned before. In comparison, for Strength vs. Dexterity, per +1 ability modifier you get:

Strength Rogue:
+1 free feat (no need to take Weapon Finesse)
+1 Melee Weapon/Composite Bow Damage
+1 Thrown Weapon To-Hit/Damage
+1 to Climb and Swim
+15 lbs light load carry weight, approximately

Dexterity Rogue:
+1 Ranged Weapon To-Hit
+1 to Acrobatics, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, Sleight of Hand and Stealth
+1 Reflex Save
+1 Initiative
+1 AC

I'd rate the comparison of Skills to be a clear win in favour of a Dexterity Rogue, with most of the archetypal Roguish skills featuring here. Swim and Climb skill checks are usually set DC, and at higher levels magical items and spells render them obsolete completely through gaining a Fly or Swim speed. In comparison, you always want your Disable Device check as high as possible, and Acrobatics DC for tumbling increases in difficulty depending on the opponent's CMD (at higher levels impossibly so) meaning every bit helps. Stealth is an opposed roll too, so you want this as big as possible.

+1 to Reflex Save is debatable in usefulness, since Improved Evasion is a thing. However, taking half damage vs. taking no damage at all is still worth remembering. +1 AC and +1 Initiative are both golden, equal to 2 Traits total, which is itself worth a Feat. By contrast, improved carry weight rarely becomes an issue past 4th or 5th level, when most characters should be able to afford a Handy Haversack/Heavyload Belt/Muleback Cords.

Finally, a mention should be made to Rogue weapon proficiencies, which as a class favour Dexterity based builds over Strength. The alternative is, of course, spending a Feat on a weapon proficiency, negating the bonus feat gained from being a Strength Rogue.

From a character optimization perspective, I hope the above shows my reasoning behind supporting a Dexterity Rogue as the superior option. Of course, this isn't to say that's how every character should be built or that it's wrong to build a Strength Rogue, merely that a Dexterity Rogue has an advantage from the raw numbers.

[BlackFlyme]

There are times when you can fly but still need to climb though. Technically. It shouldn't be possible for a medium or small creature to fly up a five-foot-square shaft, technically. Their wingspans wouldn't allow it, even though the rules do. Might not be possible for some birds, even.

Having a Swim or Climb speed grants those as class skills and gives a +8 bonus to them though, so it does render most DCs obsolete.

[NullForceOmega]

I don't think that arguing in favor of skill bonus is very useful when it comes to the incredibly skill-point overloaded rogue honestly.  I'd say you both have really good points as far as build goes, but what I take away from it is that a dex rogue with strength as their second highest attribute would be able to dole out a lot of damage.  But I don't optimize (and actively discourage through use of rule zero attempts to do so) so take that for what you will.

[Jimmy]

In the event you have to climb out of a chimney or space too tight to Fly, you'd be getting a -10 modifier applied to the Climb DC, effectively meaning your Climb score is 10 ranks higher than normal. And if all that isn't enough, there's something to be said for carrying a 50 gp Monkey Fish potion as an emergency backup.

[Neonivek]

I can't argue in favor of anything

But I will say that you also have to take into account what feats and equipment both will have to get in order to be viable within their sphere.

For example as I PMed Jimmy a Strength Rogue doesn't actually get a free feat slot. They have to get an armor upgrade with that feat. That armor upgrade also comes with armor penalties and maximum dex bonus.

This means that a Strength Rogue has to dedicate 2 feats, not one. Hits its effective max dex at 16 (+3) instead of 26 (+8) and gets a -6 to -3 armor check penalty assuming a specific build of course.

Though Dex Rogue will likely go for Mithril Chainshirt which is 22 (+6) dex max.

[Jimmy]

Certainly gear plays into it as well, but it's best to simply look at the differences without assuming access to certain equipment. For example, a Rogue with +5 bonus actually gets better protection from a +1 Comfort Mithral Breastplate than a +1 Mithral Chain Shirt, and even without the feat for Medium Armor Proficiency can wear the item at no penalty since the ACP is 0. Ultimately this is situational and depends on the game and the gear though, and with the above example if you were to gain a +Dexterity belt slot item, you'd need to swap out your armor to benefit from the bonus AC (though upgrading to Celestial Armor is never a bad plan).

[Neonivek]

while yes dex does increase AC

The Strength build, for example, caps out at a higher AC then the Dex Build. It also does so at a lower investment of attribute points.

With a total armor check penalty of -2 versus 0.

Likewise every 2 points in strength increases damage by +1.5 not 1 because there is no reason for a Rogue to go one handed as they cannot have shields and cannot do two weapon fighting effectively.

As well the maximum skill point bonus for strength versus dex build is +1 compared to +6 for a net of +5.

The cap of stealth between both builds at level 10 are: 28 versus 33. The perception bonus for a high perception creature appropriate for that level is about +22 for a passive of 33.

Essentially a Dex build gets a 100% chance and a Strength build needs to roll a 15-20.

The average perception is too low for either to fail.

Mind you, if you shift to a Medium armor Strength build, it becomes an entirely different ratio where the difference is just 1. But that requires so much investment in dex.

[Amperzand]

Spoiler: Y'all seen this one yet? (click to show/hide)