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[Rolan7]

We considered filling the bag with water and casting water breathing once, but the DM appropriately ruled that the water would deoxygenate just as fast.  We involved real world physics pretty often like that...  Like when we were in a hurry to get to a place in the middle of a massive TAD, so we teleported into *space* above the target.  Two of us hid in the bag of holding while the mummy-fighter surfed a boat I (the druid) had bolstered and shaped into a reentry shield.

... To be honest, I don't remember how he survived the actual impact (RAW the damage caps really low, but the DM made a house rule...  I think it still capped at an absolute velocity value though).  Maybe a potion of feather fall taken close enough to the ground.  He nearly died from the reentry heat *anyway* but managed to scrape through.

That character was great.  He would pull the boat along with swimming, since he was a tireless undead and massively strong.  He had like 40-50 strength, usually carried a huge ball of stuff including a full rowboat.  I wanted to kit him out in massive sheets of raw iron like unpowered power armor, but the DM and he didn't go for it

Edit:  On some occasion (maybe that one) I would have suffocated in that bag of holding (not the wizard, he was a tiny fairy) except that I cast water breathing and *repeatedly* cast create water.  The newly summoned water was oxygenated.

[Neonivek]

Create Demiplane would definitely let you put a horde in a hoard.

[Bohandas]

I can't comprehend how the BBEG having a reinforced anti-teleport zone around his Fortress of Doom and Razorblades is somehow "unfair" if you want to use teleport to jump back to his throne room, beat him up, 'port out, rinse, repeat.

Because your limiting the Player's options.

It depends on the nature and resources of the villain; it would be completely reasonable for a high-level wizard or rich paranoid nobleman to protect parts of their estate with Dimensional Lock or some permanent equivalent in magic item form.

EDIT:
Especially if it's actually come up

EDIT:
The stasis of any part of the world that you aren't currently in seen in rpg videogames is not a feature of the genre but rather a limitation of the medium

[Flying Dice]

That's sort of what I was saying earlier--some BBEGs can be expected to have defenses like that, but it's illogical for them all to unless you're treating it explicitly as a game that you need to balance such that the players can only do what you want them to rather than a living world. Say, for example, you've got a nomadic barbarian warlord leading an army of tens of thousands on an invasion through known lands. Why would they have thick magical protections on wherever they happened to be encamped beyond "because DM says they do"?
 
Actually, I'm curious about something. Sharing time?

Okay, what's the most optimized bullshit character you've ever designed which:
1. Was intended for an actual game.
2. Didn't get DM-veto'd.
3. Had a backstory/character identity that couldn't be summarized in one line.

A character sheet for the details is cool, but a description'll do. Then try to justify how the character got to that point in the context of the campaign and why it wasn't a horrible abuse of your position as a player.

I'll start.

20th level Petal Warlock.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Okay. The campaign it was for never got beyond character creation, but it was Epic-level with all tier-1 classes banned. The premise was that the party was a group of well-established adventurers who, for various reasons, had decided to seek out immortality (though at the end of character creation one already was and two just wanted to help the others). By my recollection, I started out with the concept of a Warlock who could be a poor-man's Wizard for transport and divination via Path of Shadow and a Crystal Ball with Telepathy. IIRC I intended to go into the Enlightened Spirit prestige class over the course of the campaign, and I didn't think I could reasonably justify that with a 20th level Warlock in the traditional CE vein, so I needed CG fey-flavor.

IIRC we got a decent chunk of free LA. I happened across the Petal entry--it wasn't Pixie levels of broken stupidity, it fit the target flavor, and the DM allowed it. They mature at 2yo, so I ballparked the party as having been together for a bit over a decade, going with the idea that way back in the misty past she'd been a party pet of sorts who stumbled into power and is now basically just hanging out because they're the entirety of her world. I'd intended for the in-story growth (through Enlightened Spirit in crunch terms) to be a rediscovery of the unadulterated kindness of her youth and a reduction of the corrupting nastiness of the pragmatism more than a dozen years of adventuring had fostered. The inherent meaninglessness of the supposed goal to the character was going to be the catalyst by which she realized that she'd drifted too far from her own values, but the broad perspective of a seasoned adventurer would continue to make it clear that just hanging around forcing people to rest and being nice to everyone isn't a viable route either. From there I filled out everything else to turn the character into basically the fantasy Red Baron, equally capable at army-killing and single-target melting, to supplement the intended set of support skills.

Don't ask me why I have Fell Flight on a character with a natural 240' (perfect) fly speed. I think it might have been a prereq.

Please don't leave this as an awkward hanging segue. I want to see what y'all have come up with. It's always a delicate balancing act with this sort of thing, so it's fun to see how people handle it.

[Neonivek]

Say, for example, you've got a nomadic barbarian warlord leading an army of tens of thousands on an invasion through known lands. Why would they have thick magical protections on wherever they happened to be encamped beyond "because DM says they do"?

Conan was a Barbarian Warlord and he had a powerful Wizard (several in fact) in his hire.

And he fought against several Barbarian Warlords who either had wizards or who were also wizards.

AND Gangis Kahn often would take prisoners from conquests and force them into his army.

There three possible explanations
1) He has a wizard
2) He is a Barbarian Wizard
3) He captured a wizard

All of which are 100% reasonable. Especially for a Barbarian Warlord who can feasibly challenge level 10+s.

As for why? because Conan and Gangis Kahn were both highly intelligent people. In fact Gangis Kahn inspite his reputation as a barbarian was quite civilized and was closer to a politician then a warlord, and brought the Mongols together through his success in politics instead of simply beating down all other tribes. Both those people would see the value in creating a simple anti-teleport anti-scry field over the main tent.

[Flying Dice]

Yeah, and that's a plausible interpretation. But it doesn't mean that every barbarian warlord ever had a pet wizard. A certain level of metaplay is inevitable, but treating a D&D world like a video game where everything has a full set of counters for every equivalent-tier threat is pretty stupid.

Honestly, if you're going to hamfistedly bar your players from certain tactics, at least have the decency to tell them so at character creation so that nobody ends up with a character who can't do shit because they're oriented around a particular role which you've decided after the fact/behind the scenes that you don't want to allow. It's like letting someone make a sneak attack oriented Rogue and then two sessions in reveal that the BBEG and all of their minions are undead or some shit.

[Dorsidwarf]

Yeah, and that's a plausible interpretation. But it doesn't mean that every barbarian warlord ever had a pet wizard. A certain level of metaplay is inevitable, but treating a D&D world like a video game where everything has a full set of counters for every equivalent-tier threat is pretty stupid.

Honestly, if you're going to hamfistedly bar your players from certain tactics, at least have the decency to tell them so at character creation so that nobody ends up with a character who can't do shit because they're oriented around a particular role which you've decided after the fact/behind the scenes that you don't want to allow. It's like letting someone make a sneak attack oriented Rogue and then two sessions in reveal that the BBEG and all of their minions are undead or some shit.

"Level 20 BBEG trying to end the world cannot be scried and died in his evil fortress of doom and electric chairs" -> "Level 10 BBEG nomad barbarian has court wizard -> "2 sessions in invalidating a character build"
That was some impressive polymorph, in only two posts. Impressive.

As for optimised char builds?
I've never really gotten into extreme optimisation, and don't get to play much. I usually stat a tankish class with some healing on the side and take the hits for the wizards.

[Neonivek]

Or do what Conan the Barbarian did and actually tell or foreshadow about the Wizard.

HECK make the very first glimpse being about the Wizard and make it impossible to enter the tower through magical means only to find that really it was a hoard of barbarians who got in and kidnapped the wizard.

boom! You set up the villain, gave him a reasonable explanation for why you can't just "Hear about the tent".

Though if you want to houserule it to not be intrusive. Just remove the "hear about it" aspect. Just say you have to see or have been to a location.

[My Name is Immaterial]

Okay, what's the most optimized bullshit character you've ever designed?

In that same game, I made a Truenamer with a +110 to Truespeak, and...

Then try to justify how the character got to that point in the context of the campaign and why it wasn't a horrible abuse of your position as a player.

Oh.
Oops.

[Flying Dice]

Yeah, and that's a plausible interpretation. But it doesn't mean that every barbarian warlord ever had a pet wizard. A certain level of metaplay is inevitable, but treating a D&D world like a video game where everything has a full set of counters for every equivalent-tier threat is pretty stupid.

Honestly, if you're going to hamfistedly bar your players from certain tactics, at least have the decency to tell them so at character creation so that nobody ends up with a character who can't do shit because they're oriented around a particular role which you've decided after the fact/behind the scenes that you don't want to allow. It's like letting someone make a sneak attack oriented Rogue and then two sessions in reveal that the BBEG and all of their minions are undead or some shit.

"Level 20 BBEG trying to end the world cannot be scried and died in his evil fortress of doom and electric chairs" -> "Level 10 BBEG nomad barbarian has court wizard -> "2 sessions in invalidating a character build"
That was some impressive polymorph, in only two posts. Impressive.

Way to distort the point. I was talking about how it's not reasonable to set things up so that the party is always forced to do what the DM wants. If the BBEG's living in a big ol' tower I suppose it's also okay for the DM to say, "sorry, it's made of pure adamantite and permanently levitating" when the party tries to undermine it and set up an explosive charge to trigger a collapse?

I'm totally down with characters and places having abilities which they can be reasonably expected to have. But you're apparently advocating for a view where it's okay for the DM to just arbitrarily block player action when it doesn't conform to what they want, with no recourse except to follow the DM's leash. Ferex, that "level 10 barbarian BBEG with court wizard" apparently has magical defenses equal to the originally discussed BBEG? Why hasn't that wizard fucked off to do his own thing if he's that powerful?

Okay, what's the most optimized bullshit character you've ever designed?

In that same game, I made a Truenamer with a +110 to Truespeak, and...

Then try to justify how the character got to that point in the context of the campaign and why it wasn't a horrible abuse of your position as a player.

Oh.
Oops.

Oh, I remember that guy. 

[Sirus]

I tend to not bother with minmaxing uber-optomized bullshit, because why bother doing that? The DM will eventually call you out on your merciless loophole abuse, and then you'll be posting here complaining about how terrible a person your DM is for not letting you be the sole star of the party. Unless your DM specifically asks for overpowered builds, deliberately making one just seems like you're trying to dick over the rest of the group.

[Gentlefish]

...Well, it never got past the thought-process because we never continued the game, but my DM had a homebrew LoTR-verse with Beorning as its own race.

It got wildshape as the class feature (into bears only) as a racial feature.

I abused the hell out of this. I went Barbarian for the rage/HP boost/pounce. As soon as I hit level 5, I went into Nature's Warrior for the wrestling constriction and DR/- and fast healing. I delved into Complete Fighter for extra damage.

On a charge, in Brown Bear form, I did 2x 2d6+9 ( Improved Nat Attack two claws), 2d8+5 (INA Bite), plus 1d12 (Flying kick), and a grab.

On a grapple, I was doing 2d6+9 claw damage, 2d6+13 constrict, and with a pin, I was going an extra d12.

I think I may be forgetting a dice or two (There were some seriously stupid wrestling dice stacking feats) but this is about right.

In dire bear form, the claws go to 1d10+ 13 and the bite goes to 3d6 + 6

He was a nasty grappler, it's a shame I never got to play him.

[nullBolt]

That's sort of what I was saying earlier--some BBEGs can be expected to have defenses like that, but it's illogical for them all to unless you're treating it explicitly as a game that you need to balance such that the players can only do what you want them to rather than a living world. Say, for example, you've got a nomadic barbarian warlord leading an army of tens of thousands on an invasion through known lands. Why would they have thick magical protections on wherever they happened to be encamped beyond "because DM says they do"?

Why would they not?!

You're a powerful warlord leading a huge army in a world where an evil wizard can pop out of nowhere and blast the living fucking shit out of you. Why would anyone with any mediocum of power not be buying charms to block scrying and teleportation when it's not allowed by them?

You argue that it's in the rules that it's fine if it works line that. If it's in the rules, it's been done by someone else already in game. I mean, Sweet Baby Jesus, we don't have magical powers in the real world but people have sold charms for millenia blocking the evil eye, in a world where the evil eye exists then you'd always have one.

Yeah, and that's a plausible interpretation. But it doesn't mean that every barbarian warlord ever had a pet wizard. A certain level of metaplay is inevitable, but treating a D&D world like a video game where everything has a full set of counters for every equivalent-tier threat is pretty stupid.

Honestly, if you're going to hamfistedly bar your players from certain tactics, at least have the decency to tell them so at character creation so that nobody ends up with a character who can't do shit because they're oriented around a particular role which you've decided after the fact/behind the scenes that you don't want to allow. It's like letting someone make a sneak attack oriented Rogue and then two sessions in reveal that the BBEG and all of their minions are undead or some shit.

I honestly don't know if you're intentionally misinterpreting what we're saying or you honestly don't understand the fundamental differences between assembly line Optimised Conjuration Whizzard #54566 soloing a dragon designed to fight the entire party and a rogue in some den somewhere being killed by a fireball, but there really is one.

I'm amused watching those who get upset over one encounter, thinking I'm doing it wrong. Play how you want to play. I had a great time tonight, and it was a nifty challenge to overcome. Now that it's out of the way for now, of course, I can continue to provide Haste and tactical support to the party instead of going toe to toe with the big boss. I'd much prefer a good dungeon crawl where you fight enemies in a 10 ft. by 10 ft. corridor, have the rogue scouting for traps, and kick open the door to see what horrible creature's on the other side.

You had a great time, but did the rest of the party?

Honestly, man, you really seem more suited to video games than you do pen and paper.

It's your group's choice, but when one player can literally take over the game whenever they want to it becomes a major problem and tends to completely ruin the enjoyment.

Okay, what's the most optimized bullshit character you've ever designed which:
1. Was intended for an actual game.
2. Didn't get DM-veto'd.
3. Had a backstory/character identity that couldn't be summarized in one line.

Vitalist thrallherd who was essentially a lucky anime harem character. So all his thralls were girls between the ages of 16-30 and his main thrall was a tsundere barbarian. He didn't know he was a psionic mind-rapist and all his powers were based around "Nakama" and "Ganbaru!".

Sadly I didn't play it because I ended up feeling it was too strong compared to everyone else. I played a lawful evil anti-paladin instead and it was great if inefficient.

[scriver]

You need to accept the fact people might enjoy playing games in different ways than you, and that's no big deal, and stop making assumptions about how people you've never met or interacted with feels about those kind of games.

[nullBolt]

You need to accept the fact people might enjoy playing games in different ways than you, and that's no big deal, and stop making assumptions about how people you've never met or interacted with feels about those kind of games.

I've no doubt there are and if they're happy with it then it is their choice and their game.

I've yet to find a group that would be happy with one dominant player, though.