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Author Topic: Building up as dangerous as digging deep?  (Read 13055 times)

NJW2000

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Re: Building up as dangerous as digging deep?
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2015, 03:13:41 pm »

I dread to hear what you could find to rape and pillage in hell, yeah.
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angelious

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Re: Building up as dangerous as digging deep?
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2015, 03:34:37 pm »

I dread to hear what you could find to rape and pillage in hell, yeah.


demons?
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NJW2000

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Re: Building up as dangerous as digging deep?
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2015, 03:51:23 pm »

"Etar Patternedtombs was a mint green demon. It was the only one of its kind. A gigantic feathered ass twisted into humanoid form. It undulates rhythmically. Its mint green feathers are patchy. Beware its deadly gas!"
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angelious

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Re: Building up as dangerous as digging deep?
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2015, 03:53:43 pm »

"Etar Patternedtombs was a mint green demon. It was the only one of its kind. A gigantic feathered ass twisted into humanoid form. It undulates rhythmically. Its mint green feathers are patchy. Beware its deadly gas!"


a hole is a hole...
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Building up as dangerous as digging deep?
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2015, 06:45:35 pm »

it would be fun to INVADE heaven.


just imagine it. "your dwarves hear heavenly singing from above"

and then you send your 100 man strong urist mcfuckyou army to rape and pillage heaven to make it your colony

These don't seem to do much heavenly singing...  (And kinda already here...)
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Niddhoger

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Re: Building up as dangerous as digging deep?
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2015, 03:41:14 pm »

Back on track... a highly visible construction would serve as a lightning road for visitors to your fort.  Even people that weren't looking for your fort/those that were lost could see the tower.  You'd get more visitors in the form of traveling artists, scholars, and adventurers.  You'd also get an increase in invasions/ambushes/megabeasts.  This could be the risk/reward balance, but I don't think there is much reward to gaining more scholars atm.  Toady wants to develop an alchemy system tied to research, but for now its mostly just for fun/laying ground work for later.  More artists would increase needs better I guess, not sure how they are going to play out obviously.  More adventurers would mean more soldiers already armed and trained, but this might be break even considering you get attacked more.

The only other thing I can think of is that the tower would attract more aerial monsters (harpies, drakes), but for this to be worthwhile they'd need to bring a unique/highly valuable resource or otherwise fulfill some sort of requirement or other fortress milestone... but those would be a -very- long way away from this alpha version of DF.  I'm mostly thinking about rare alchemical ingredients (harpy feathers, wyvern stinger) or using drake/dragon scales in armor construction.  Their fire-proof nature would actually have to matter, and we'd naturally have to be able make armor out of scales (and have it be stronger than normal leather).  It could be a useful iron/steel alternative though.  "Couldn't find any iron below, better build the tower, chain the elves and dogs up top as bait, and hope the drakes/dragons swing by."

Invading Heaven though... it is going to be worse than breaching hell.  Heaven includes Archangels that are the size of/larger than FBs, have grandmaster level in all combat skills, and are armed and armored with metals better than steel (but not candy).  The soldiers have the same divine metal equipment but lesser stats.  They are still huge and have massive attribute boosts though.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Building up as dangerous as digging deep?
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2015, 04:22:18 pm »

Back on track... a highly visible construction would serve as a lightning road for visitors to your fort.  Even people that weren't looking for your fort/those that were lost could see the tower.

Rationally, that would presume there was already enough traffic close to your fortress that would put them within line of sight.  Keep in mind that we're frequently talking distances of several day's travel/dozens of km between sites. 

It doesn't matter how big the landmark, people aren't likely to go visiting close enough to the Bristles of Witches, a terrifying swamp, to see your 30z-tall solid gold warhammer statue. 

Comparatively, it should be relatively easy to see your fort if you're built directly on the shortest path (or you help construct roads to MAKE it the shortest path) between two human civs. 

In general, as was being discussed in the Hidden Fortress thread, what happens on the worldgen level should be much more notable than what happens in your fortress, itself.  A tower is notable, yes, but you'd see the large wagon ruts from all the caravans going to your fortress from much further away. 

The only other thing I can think of is that the tower would attract more aerial monsters (harpies, drakes), but for this to be worthwhile they'd need to bring a unique/highly valuable resource or otherwise fulfill some sort of requirement or other fortress milestone... but those would be a -very- long way away from this alpha version of DF.

You can already capture rocs and dragons and breed them if you're wildly lucky enough to get a breeding pair.  (Or at least, tame the females, and have "really big omelette night" for your dwarves.  Note, roc eggs are three times the size of the typical adult dwarf.)

In fact, if towers attracted rocs, and you just set up some cages to catch them, they're practically the best pets ever.  They egg lay, are immortal, are huge (450-900 meat and bones!), and can be trained into war rocs AND can be used as an exotic mount. (Which means eventually having an aerial corps of elite marksdwarves on roc-back. BWAAAHAHAHAHAHA!)

Also, harpies already exist in evil swamps and grasslands, but they're not as interesting or dangerous as a giant eagle, anyway, so it's kind of a letdown. They also cannot lay eggs, be tamed, or butchered, so they're like mermaids, but more boring. 

I'm mostly thinking about rare alchemical ingredients (harpy feathers, wyvern stinger) or using drake/dragon scales in armor construction.  Their fire-proof nature would actually have to matter, and we'd naturally have to be able make armor out of scales (and have it be stronger than normal leather).  It could be a useful iron/steel alternative though.  "Couldn't find any iron below, better build the tower, chain the elves and dogs up top as bait, and hope the drakes/dragons swing by."

Dragon and fire imp leather already is immune to fire and magma.  It's just not any better than normal leather, currently, because all other stats use the same copy-pasted data. 

Invading Heaven though... it is going to be worse than breaching hell.  Heaven includes Archangels that are the size of/larger than FBs, have grandmaster level in all combat skills, and are armed and armored with metals better than steel (but not candy).  The soldiers have the same divine metal equipment but lesser stats.  They are still huge and have massive attribute boosts though.

But I don't think angels have HFS-style perks, which would mean they "fight fair", so they'd probably be easier to take on with a straight military.  (I.E. no solid steel blobs, no flying webbers pairing up with flaming projectile spitters, no deadly dust, etc.)
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NJW2000

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Re: Building up as dangerous as digging deep?
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2015, 04:55:35 pm »


Quote from: Niddhoger on Today at 03:41:14 pm

   
Quote
The only other thing I can think of is that the tower would attract more aerial monsters (harpies, drakes), but for this to be worthwhile they'd need to bring a unique/highly valuable resource or otherwise fulfill some sort of requirement or other fortress milestone... but those would be a -very- long way away from this alpha version of DF.


In DF, worthwhile doesn't necessarily mean worth it in resources terms, for some people. Many might just want to be able to entice a few more dragons over.


NW_Kohaku
And as to extra-HFS, one guy got a steel ape, while MaxTM had ones made of magma, so a lot of material variation there. Dunno about stingers and blobs, but still an entertaining battle.
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Niddhoger

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Re: Building up as dangerous as digging deep?
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2015, 07:35:43 am »

Right... but fire proof leather still doesn't actually protect your dorf from fire.  The leather will be fine, but he'll melt/burn underneath it.  His wooden shield on the other hand...  *sigh*

This is why I mentioned alchemy.  Toady wants to bring back alchemy and tie it into the scholar/library system.  I'm not sure if he wants straight chemistry, or if he wants to mix in some more fantasy elements.  So chemistry could be converting bauxite into aluminum and distilling mercury from cinnabar... or making "potions of fire resistance" from fire imp tails and dragon scales.  Besides, guaranteeing an easy Roc capture by just building a tower seems overpowered.  Building a tower is labor-intensive and meticulous, but neither hard nor dangerous.  We could easily have a war-roc or two waiting to take on the first goblin siege.  Especially if we only needed a 5x5 tower to provoke the attacks.  20 stories is only 500 blocks/125 units of stone.  If you take the time to keep pushing your block stockpiles up the tower, it really wouldn't take -that- long to build (game-time wise).  So long as you have basic rooms and some food production going in a functional dining room (and a bridge ready to seal off your fort-proper), the rest of your fort activity can be suspended in pursuit of those sweet, sweet, war rocs.  Considering how easy it is to just trap one *shrugs*

As far as visibility... a 200 foot tower is what, 30 miles in flatish land? I never really played close attention to how far away I could see sky-scrapers when driving into a big city.  I know that isn't much, but I was mostly just throwing things out there for a game-play feature.  If anything, a large surface construction would lend to fortress prestige.  People would see it as being more safe, more powerful, more influential, etc and thus worth visiting over another sprawling, defenseless hamlet. 

As for a purpose... yeah there pretty much needs to be one, otherwise there is no point.  Not sure how else to put it... As weird as it may sound, HFS serves to make candy all the more valuable.  You have to be -very- careful mining it in order to reap that sweet, sweet (super power ultra-lite best stuff ever) metal.  This makes you cherish successful extraction (setting up airlocks, carving fortifications to safely peek inside spires level-by-level, carefully mining around a "hollow" pillar and using water to cast the magma into obsidian to safely mine a few more wafers...) all the more because you avoided the more or less guaranteed death of HFS.  Provoking an invasion from Heaven because you simply built a 20 z-level (less than 200 foot) tower doesn't seem to make much sense either.  We can't really build up much more than this (DF is about digging, afterall), and if hell is easily 100z-levels below surface (or more) I don't see Heaven being only 25z's. 
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Building up as dangerous as digging deep?
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2015, 07:42:35 pm »

Besides, guaranteeing an easy Roc capture by just building a tower seems overpowered.

Well, you were saying there wasn't any worthwhile reward without an alchemy system, and I was just going to the most conveniently powerful example of a fantastic reward with the current system.  If "easy Roc capture" is overpowered, then it's just a matter of toning down the reward. 
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angelious

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Re: Building up as dangerous as digging deep?
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2015, 05:05:48 am »

Besides, guaranteeing an easy Roc capture by just building a tower seems overpowered.

Well, you were saying there wasn't any worthwhile reward without an alchemy system, and I was just going to the most conveniently powerful example of a fantastic reward with the current system.  If "easy Roc capture" is overpowered, then it's just a matter of toning down the reward.


also "easy roc capture" relative to who?
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Niddhoger

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Re: Building up as dangerous as digging deep?
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2015, 09:40:00 am »

Roc's lack ranged attacks and even though they are flying, will still trip a simple wooden trap on the same Z-level as them.  It is pathetically easy to bait one into a shoddy wooden (inescapable) trap.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Building up as dangerous as digging deep?
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2015, 10:36:39 am »

Roc's lack ranged attacks and even though they are flying, will still trip a simple wooden trap on the same Z-level as them.  It is pathetically easy to bait one into a shoddy wooden (inescapable) trap.

I believe what angelious means is that "easy" captures apply to pretty much every creature ever.  Cage traps are hilariously overpowered, and work on anything not [TRAP_AVOID].  Even those creatures are vulnerable to a web spun by a not-[TRAP_AVOID] GCS if they aren't spinners, themselves, which isn't "easy", but isn't THAT elaborately difficult. 

Even a dragon or other creature with ranged attacks is easy to capture in a cage.  All you need to do is put some bait artifact on a ledge with a cage trap or a dozen in front of it.
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

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angelious

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Re: Building up as dangerous as digging deep?
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2015, 12:15:52 pm »

Roc's lack ranged attacks and even though they are flying, will still trip a simple wooden trap on the same Z-level as them.  It is pathetically easy to bait one into a shoddy wooden (inescapable) trap.

I believe what angelious means is that "easy" captures apply to pretty much every creature ever.  Cage traps are hilariously overpowered, and work on anything not [TRAP_AVOID].  Even those creatures are vulnerable to a web spun by a not-[TRAP_AVOID] GCS if they aren't spinners, themselves, which isn't "easy", but isn't THAT elaborately difficult. 

Even a dragon or other creature with ranged attacks is easy to capture in a cage.  All you need to do is put some bait artifact on a ledge with a cage trap or a dozen in front of it.


nerf traps.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Building up as dangerous as digging deep?
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2015, 12:45:01 pm »

nerf traps.

Toady has said in the past that he wants to get rid of traps as they exist in the game.  They've been unchanged since the 2d era, and stonefall traps make little sense when the stones are apparently just hovering in midair in an open field. 

Rather, he's said he wants all traps to be things players have to designate and devise themselves, so that they're things like just having a way to order boulders placed on a retracting drawbridge, instead. 

This obviously gets trickier for cage traps, since there's no easy analogue, and there's no other real way to capture or tame any of the exotic animals we're supposed to be capable of taming at the moment.
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
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