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Author Topic: Let's debate: Minimum wage addition  (Read 4989 times)

10ebbor10

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Re: Let's debate: Minimum wage addition
« Reply #60 on: May 23, 2015, 12:01:44 pm »

Problem is, chances are that the corporations will invest in equipment and gold plated thrones for the CEO's rather than increased wages. After all, in case of economic downturn the equipment can be sold, but cutting wages is much harder.
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wierd

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Re: Let's debate: Minimum wage addition
« Reply #61 on: May 23, 2015, 12:18:41 pm »

Thats why instead of a flat minimum wage, there needs to be a codified formula for determining minimum pay, based on some criteria.

Currently, employers want the sun, the moon, and the stars in the sky when it comes to the credentials of thier workers, but they want to pay bargain basement wages to get it.

If you tie baseline pay (across all disciplines) to total education level and prior job experience, and do so with weight of law, coupled with nondiscrimination law against ageism, you can hit this problem below the belt.

The formula needs to be based on current inflation values, costs of education, years of experience doing a job, and the wages they pay entry level employees, in terms of percentages.  This needs to be enforced regardless if the employee is an american citizen or not (include payments to SS and the like, healthcare, etc.).  American corporation? American wage laws.

Throw in some really nasty disincentives to re-incorporation in a foreign country (like immediate forfieture of offshored accounts, say 40% gross off the top) and I think you can solve the problems.

Raising prices increases the inflation, which would force them to raise wages again to be compliant. Bzzzt, not workable. Offshoring workers does not solve the problem either, because they are now legally required to use american pay scales and still pay social security and for insurance. No deal there either. Abruptly terminating people when they get "too experienced" would run foul of equal opportunity employment, due to tougher ageism restraints.

See where this is going? The only really viable solutions are 1) pay your employees properly, and 2) go completely out of business, and make room for somebody that can.

but it will be a cold day in hell when something like that gets passed without being neutered/corrupted by the bargaining process.
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wobbly

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Re: Let's debate: Minimum wage addition
« Reply #62 on: May 23, 2015, 12:51:17 pm »

If you tie baseline pay (across all disciplines) to total education level and prior job experience, and do so with weight of law, coupled with nondiscrimination law against ageism, you can hit this problem below the belt.

The formula needs to be based on current inflation values, costs of education, years of experience doing a job, and the wages they pay entry level employees, in terms of percentages.  This needs to be enforced regardless if the employee is an american citizen or not (include payments to SS and the like, healthcare, etc.).  American corporation? American wage laws.

Wouldn't this cause issues with overqualified workers not being able to get a job because there pay rate is too high? I mean, that sometimes happens anyway but I could see this causing as many problems as it solves.
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wierd

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Re: Let's debate: Minimum wage addition
« Reply #63 on: May 23, 2015, 12:58:38 pm »

You mean, it would force employers to either bite the bullet on that AAA talent they say they desperately need, or consider doing the job with less than AAA talent?

Yes. Yes that is intentional.

(If you have ever negotiated for pay with that kind of experience, you know that there is a good deal of swing in what they offer you. This is not nearly as big a problem as you think it is, unless you are considering the salaries of "highly compensated" board members and staff. The kind that make over a million dollars a year. In which case, the solution is to re-think what the entry level pay rate is.)
« Last Edit: May 23, 2015, 01:00:13 pm by wierd »
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Frumple

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Re: Let's debate: Minimum wage addition
« Reply #64 on: May 23, 2015, 01:27:26 pm »

but it will be a cold day in hell when something like that gets passed without being neutered/corrupted by the bargaining process.
And now that statement is slightly more in line with reality. It's good you realize what you're proposing is a complete impossibility in the current political climate, though. Maybe in another five or six decades or a century or two there might be the political capital and interest in implementing something like that. What'd be really interesting is to try some small scale implementations and see how well it works in practice on the lower end of things, which is something that might actually be possible before everyone talking here is dead. It's a fun thing to think about, anyway. Completely useless to actually advocate, because there's absolutely zero chance of it being implemented for generations to come, but a decent thought experiment and maybe experimental wage model for a business or two willing and able to risk it.

... in the meantime, public support for a minimum wage increase in the US is at something like 60-70%, iirc. Something we might actually accomplish in our lifetimes, that. One of the schemes on board (the more popular one, even, from what I recall!) even intends to finally peg the damned thing to inflation, to help combat the eroding purchasing power issue. As opposed to shoving our heads up our arses and wailing about better systems while doing jack-all to better implement what's already there and actually viable from a political standpoint ♫
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wobbly

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Re: Let's debate: Minimum wage addition
« Reply #65 on: May 23, 2015, 01:56:04 pm »

@wierd - I'm more talking about technical positions such as Engineering where I'd rather businesses not have extra incentives to cut corners.
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Bohandas

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Re: Let's debate: Minimum wage addition
« Reply #66 on: May 23, 2015, 02:11:39 pm »

Well, we could take it from the other side. If we limit the amount of markup that can be placed on goods and services, it will revalue the dollar and the minimum wage would be livable. We're paying over 1000% markup on some items in grocery stores. I mean, the price of some luxuries may actually go up (electronics and computers are extremely cutthroat,) but those $550 Nike shoes cost less than $20 to make. If we force companies to bring prices down to reasonable levels based on their cost to produce (and prevent corrupt price fixing first thing,) they still make a profit and the little guy wins a little too.


Another good idea
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Zangi

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Re: Let's debate: Minimum wage addition
« Reply #67 on: May 23, 2015, 02:55:47 pm »

Stop importing fromsending our jobs to Chinaoverseas you mean?
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SalmonGod

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Re: Let's debate: Minimum wage addition
« Reply #68 on: May 23, 2015, 04:11:21 pm »

-snip-
By golly, somebody gets it.
Someone who supports a minimum of a living wage gets that there shouldn't be an increase in the minimum wage?

No, I support a rise in minimum wage.  I think it should be more than $15, even.

But it's just one peg in the game of economic whack-a-mole that the upper classes will force us into.  What I was saying is that every argument against the minimum wage is essentially pointing this out, without acknowledging what it really means.  This is class conflict.  It's useless to try and put it into any more politically sterile terminology. 

As Frumple pointed out, there's political will right now to raise the minimum wage... and that's great, but this is just a temporary relief.  The upper classes will say "we're losing profits now in this area, so we have to regain them over in this other area."  And that other area will hit the middle and lower classes the same way shitty wages did.

Fixing minimum wage to inflation is great, too, but it's only automating two pegs in the whack-a-mole game.  There are plenty of other ways for employers to personally benefit by fucking everyone else over.

We're going to return to the same miserable circumstances over and over and over again, until something deeper is addressed.  I'll be accused of utopian wishful thinking, but I think it's equally wishful thinking to believe that stacking band-aids on this stuff forever is sustainable.

Ultimately, there will have to be some real confrontation.  And so long as wealth = power, any fight for something more than a band-aid will not be won in legislature.  It will be won by the sincere threat of enough instability that wealth will no longer have any meaning.  This is all about negotiating the terms of the society we all live in together, and the very most basic principle of negotiation is that you have zero bargaining power if there is no point at which you're willing to walk away.
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Re: Let's debate: Minimum wage addition
« Reply #69 on: May 23, 2015, 06:40:10 pm »

Yeah, I support raisin the minimum wage, but I think the real solution is gonna need to be replacing capitalism and the corresponding moral frameworks with something else.
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LordBucket

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Re: Let's debate: Minimum wage addition
« Reply #70 on: May 24, 2015, 12:51:14 am »

I support a rise in minimum wage.  I think it should be more than $15, even.

What effect do you think that would have on the unemployment rate?

Because personally I think eliminating all those low paying jobs is a good thing in the long term. But my impression is that you think that raising the minimum to $15/hr would result in most of the people making 7-12 now actually receiving 15 instead, rather than simply being replaced with robots.

Why do you think that?

MaximumZero

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Re: Let's debate: Minimum wage addition
« Reply #71 on: May 24, 2015, 01:32:40 am »

We don't even need to wholescale replace capitalism. We just need to break it down so that it's useful. If we use capitalism as a carrot system rather than a stick system, it would be a real motivator to bring the economy back in line with the 1%s expectations. By that I mean this: A split system of capitalism and socialism where the brightest and best of the poor actually have social mobility to move into the capitalist side of things instead of being largely locked into poverty unless they get hugely lucky on an insane gamble.

We as a country have the resources to provide every single citizen with basic housing, utilities, medicine, education, and food. Every single citizen. Problem is, those resources are being wasted at an alarming rate by not only our federal government, but also the states, and the rest are being hoarded by the upper echelon of the elite who are absolutely not using that wealth for the benefit of the country. There are a lot of processes needed to make change, but until we get the "landed elite" types out of government, those changes will not take place. Who would actively harm their own status? Quite frankly, loopholes in various financial laws need to be closed to prevent the massive, but legal, tax evasion that corporations and the uber-wealthy have made an art form of. People are earning hundreds of millions and corporations are earning billions and they are getting tax refunds. This is costing us hundreds of millions of tax dollars. Waste and fraud are costing us several billion a year, including $95 billion in overlapping programs and $115 billion in medicare fraud alone. (Note: I wouldn't believe the absurd number they throw out there for a total, because most of it comes from "Rebuilding Iraq," and it's our damned fault that it needs to be rebuilt in the first place. The US should have no place in worldbuilding, IMHO. We never should have propped up Saddam in the first place, but here we are, asshole deep in a quagmire that we largely created.) We're wasting billions of dollars a year on the "war on drugs". The 2014 net tax gap estimate is $290 billion. That's just straight up people and companies who didn't pay their taxes. There is a stupidly large abuse, fraud, and waste problem in the United States. What are we doing to punish this problem? Essentially nothing. It's too expensive to enforce. We issue fines, but those rarely get paid because it's too costly to take them to court. Furthermore, it's estimated that we would actually save a huge amount of money by switching to single-payer healthcare. On top of just the administrative costs, you also eat a huge chunk of healthcare fraud and waste by streamlining the system to collect payments (and making it more difficult to file false reports.)

So, if we outline the social strata to ensure that healthcare, education, food, shelter and basic utilities (electricity, gas, and water/sewer/garbage collection,) are rights instead of luxuries, we would invigorate the economy because a) people would be able to purchase luxuries, and b) people would be able to dig themselves out of poverty by just working hard instead of taking on massive debt and then attempting to invest or start their own businesses, of which a huge percentage fail in the very first year. If you give people the tools to do better than minimum, most of them will, even if the reason is simply to be better than someone else. Yes, some would just live happily at the very minimum that the government would pay for (and there's not necessarily anything wrong with that. They're still going to participate in society and the economy at large.) Not everyone would go on to earn a college degree and work in insanely high paying careers, but if everyone had the chance to move up the ladder a little, then you create more taxpayers, and in turn more taxes for the government to collect. You energize the tax-base and jumpstart the economy by just ensuring that people have what they need and letting them work for what they want. Furthermore, buying luxuries creates jobs in the manufacturing and retail/service sectors. If you can afford to go out to eat, you provide a job for a cook and a waiter/ress. If you can afford a car or tv or game console or shoes or whatever, you provide jobs to factory workers. (In turn, if companies were heavily punished, say with prison time or banned sales for serious offenders, for using sweatshop/slave labor in foreign countries and faced tariffs for importing goods from cheap labor countries and incentivized to use US labor instead, you provide more American jobs.) If those people in turn can afford to get luxury items or services, they provide jobs in turn and everyone wins. After all, CEOs and obscenely rich people still exist in my (admittedly highly idealistic) scenario, there's just less of a gap between the poorest and the richest.

To combat the serious poverty and wealth inequality issue that we face, we need to redefine what our own human rights are as Americans and we also need to improve the buying power of the dollar. By reducing the huge amount of waste, fraud, and overlap, punishing tax evasion, and combining these measures with efforts to revalue the dollar with various approaches (limiting toxic debts, capping markups, ensuring livable wages and hours, providing minimum necessities, ensuring jobs stay in the States, et al,) we can make the country not only better for everyone below the top 1% wealthiest of the population, but also improve our economic health in the long run.
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Re: Let's debate: Minimum wage addition
« Reply #72 on: May 24, 2015, 02:28:09 am »

That sounds very nice, but I don't see how you'd be able to achieve it, and I don't think it'd last if you did. The trouble with capitalism, is that it provides too much potential for the wealthy to just buy the system. You'd also need a ridiculous amount of political capital. The idea behind my system, is that it can start small and work its way up, and every inch you gain makes things easier, instead of harder. I still have a lot of details to work out, though.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Let's debate: Minimum wage addition
« Reply #73 on: May 24, 2015, 03:11:48 am »

I support a rise in minimum wage.  I think it should be more than $15, even.

What effect do you think that would have on the unemployment rate?

Because personally I think eliminating all those low paying jobs is a good thing in the long term. But my impression is that you think that raising the minimum to $15/hr would result in most of the people making 7-12 now actually receiving 15 instead, rather than simply being replaced with robots.

Why do you think that?

Being replaced with robots is going to happen anyway.  Raising minimum wage might just speed up the process a little more.  Once of the reasons I think capitalism has to go is because there is a decline in the amount of work available that requires human labor.  We've had this discussion before.  You should know where I stand on it.  It's lunacy to me that eliminating the need for work should be regarded as a bad thing.



The trouble with capitalism, is that it provides too much potential for the wealthy to just buy the system.

And yeah... this is my #1 issue with capitalism.  Profit itself is just another term for wealth consolidation, and as long as that core aspect remains, it doesn't matter how many reforms are put in place to kick corruption and inequality in the ass.  All those barriers will once again erode over time, because capitalism is designed to provide means and incentive for that very behavior. 

Not saying that reforms that provide temporary relief aren't a great thing, but we need to get over the illusion that they can be anything but temporary.  And the real reason this is a problem is because technology continually worsens the consequences of things getting out of hand.  As inequality worsens, corruption for the wealthy elite gets easier, and the environmental destruction that results from businesses not being held properly accountable for their behavior gets worse.  Or on the other side of things, desperation among the poor leads to more de-forestation and poaching.

And honestly, this may be humanity's last chance to fix this shit.  If it's not already too late and we manage to reel this situation in one more time, we absolutely will not be able to afford things getting like this again.
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LordBucket

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Re: Let's debate: Minimum wage addition
« Reply #74 on: May 24, 2015, 03:20:25 am »

Being replaced with robots is going to happen anyway.  Raising minimum wage might just speed up the process a little more

It's lunacy to me that eliminating the need for work should be regarded as a bad thing.

Ok. Seems we're more or less in agreement then.
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