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Author Topic: Supernatural 8 - Game over! Town Victory  (Read 69219 times)

origamiscienceguy

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Re: Supernatural 8 - Day 1 - Dark Night heralds a Bloody Dawn
« Reply #180 on: June 01, 2015, 06:44:16 pm »

Been busy, just popping in for a bit. From what I read, I don't think that Cheesekake is guilty, but that is mainly a gut feeling. I am getting the
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flabort

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Re: Supernatural 8 - Day 1 - Dark Night heralds a Bloody Dawn
« Reply #181 on: June 01, 2015, 06:57:52 pm »

@peradon If you think I am voting birdy because of an rvs question you clearly didnt bother to read the post try harder pls.
You talking to me?
I don't think he is.
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birdy51

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Re: Supernatural 8 - Day 1 - Dark Night heralds a Bloody Dawn
« Reply #182 on: June 01, 2015, 07:05:11 pm »

Working backwards today. Some of this may be a bit out of order, but I wanted to touch upon what interested me.

---

@peradon If you think I am voting birdy because of an rvs question you clearly didnt bother to read the post try harder pls.

Roo: Perhaps if you didn't obfuscate matters you wouldn't be having this issue. : P

---

birdy51: You're not going to get an answer for a random question out of roo.  It won't happen.  Want to understand him?  Read Vengeful 10.

Jack A T: I shall do the reading and eventually come up with a word on my own then. Danke.

Do 12ers play to a couple of competing wagons each day?
spruce: That would be nice, but what tends to happen is we end up with one main wagon and we end up with a bunch of scattered votes on other players from people who dislike the main wagon, all yelling their own things and none really trying to convince others.  Not enough effort to convince people of cases, not enough commentary on (or attention to) cases other than one's own aside from searching for scumtells.  I've griped about this before, and would love more acceptance of critical acceptance of cases.
Yeah, Teneb, you big meanie. Answer the guy with the terrifying avatar.
Key word being critical.  Less leaning on me, more fleshed-out thoughts about Teneb's actions and/or my attacks.

Also, this whole bit interests me. I was eating soup and an idea occurred to me. Would you be willing to continuously critically examine my works and I yours? Not as a gentleman's agreement, as in we don't vote for each other, but as a way of keeping each other's shit straight on a more constant scale and following each of our own respective leads.

Would you be interested?

---

Extend, please join me, while extensions generally go needlessly unused, there are plenty of people who aren't voting (loking at you, flabort and TDS) not seriously voting (birdy) and its 3.5 hours away from day end, so this one would be good. I also just created a tie, although I'll be around to break it if necessary.

Unvote Cheesecake. We don't even know if we are facing the Cult scumteam, and the sudden votes on cheese near day end are making me suspicious. Cheese is a good vig target anyway, and we would get more information out of lynching someone else, as Cheese hasn't had a lot of interaction with other players aside from being attacked.

Still, assuming that I'm right about the rot part, that's two-thirds chance that Cheesecake is scum. Thoughts on this theory?
Actually no. There's either a 100% chance he's scum or a 100% chance he's town (and a 100% chance he's third party). Cheesecake's role has already been given to him, so probability doesn't work that way.

Also, about the rot part, if Cheese had gotten a role PM saying he was part of a cult, it would have said he was a Vampire, not a Cultist.

I'm most suspicious of Teneb right now.

Let's look at his attack on spruce.  I believe this attack may be more an effort to look active and scumhunty than an effort to hunt scum.  It's slapped together oddly, with unsupported assertions mixed with supportable ones.  Teneb accuses spruce of constantly using nonsense to dodge questions and giving no content, but even in the set of spruce's posts that Teneb included in evidence, there's some content and the blocks of spruce-speak include answers (best example: this one).

Teneb plays up his massive block of quotes as being almost all of spruce's posts to that point.  There were 8 posts in that spoiler, and spruce had 17 posts at that point.  So, Teneb took less than half of spruce's posts, called them almost all of his posts, and attacked him for a lack of content.  Let's look at some of what Teneb omitted, then.  Maybe Teneb just omitted the assorted questions about how the setup works, how the forum works, and such...
Oh look, among the system and forum questions, there was some omitted interesting commentary on the game up to that point, with an emphasis on birdy.  Content.

Now, was spruce doing all that much scumhunting?  Not clearly, not by our standards, though he did have interest in and get information from birdy.  Did he, though, give no content and just run around dodging questions with nonsense?  No.

Teneb's other post is less objectionable, being merely one of the many "Cheesecake did a scumslip" posts.  However, it's interesting to see that in both posts, he went after classic soft targets: a newbie and a forum newcomer.  It's also interesting to note the lack of any questions to anyone but Cheesecake and spruce.  Also interesting to note the way he dropped the Cheesecake point without comment.

Teneb: Please explain.  I'm particularly interested in the reasons for omitting the posts I noted.  Also, why no interest in anyone but spruce and Cheesecake, and why drop the Cheesecake point completely without comment?
Isn't this Teneb's MO, attack a relatively new player to Bay12 because they play differently? He did it to Varee in the last NSBM and  he turned out to be right, and Deathsword's lynch caused town to lose. Having said that, I'll probably join you on the Teneb lynch if there's still a tie in a few hours. Of the two wagons, He's the one who seems more scummy.

Persus13: Your argument has some distinct holes in it. I will begin the dissection.

First, you make sure to mention my name as a player that isn't doing his part when my first vote was to apply pressure upon Spruce to get answers out of him, and my second vote was against EPenguin to get him back into the game. The EPenguin who hasn't said anything beyond two posts, a fact you blissfully ignored. If there is anyone who we are to be waiting on, it would be him. For someone who stated that he valued Communication, he still hasn't done any communication. Surely those grounds are not without merit, yes?

Secondly, I'm not a fan of broad generalizations. Two votes does not a bandwagon make. Which is the number of votes Cheesecake had as of your unvote. That's not a whole helluva lot of people, so if you're going to call them out on their vote, why didn't you do so directly by name? Following immediately after that, you call for a vigilante to kill Cheesecake. Why not use the Day vote? The night is not something that any player should rely on. There are a great many things that can go wrong in the Night Phase, so why take the risk?

Finally, who are you to say what was on Cheesecake's PM? He referred to the 'Cult Conversion Game Subset', not Cult team that we know of. In addition, implied that cult games are harder due to conversions. Now I should note, that the first Cult we ever had was a standard Kill Town Mafia agenda. The second 'Cult' team, had an anomaly 1-shot convert that Mephansteras failed to communicate to the players. They were still killing players with reckless abandon. In essence, they are like a traditional Mafia team. Werewolves are also a traditional Mafia team with a Kill Town agenda. Two scum teams from separate games. Same overall goals.

Therefore, I would not be surprised in the slightest if there is a Cult Conversion game going on here.

---

Further review is necessary on my end. Sometime either today or tomorrow, I'll present my reads.
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Persus13

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Re: Supernatural 8 - Day 1 - Dark Night heralds a Bloody Dawn
« Reply #183 on: June 01, 2015, 08:04:11 pm »

@peradon If you think I am voting birdy because of an rvs question you clearly didnt bother to read the post try harder pls.
You talking to me?
I don't think he is.
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Look at post #170 where I ask roo about his vote of birdy.

Persus13: Your argument has some distinct holes in it. I will begin the dissection.

First, you make sure to mention my name as a player that isn't doing his part when my first vote was to apply pressure upon Spruce to get answers out of him, and my second vote was against EPenguin to get him back into the game. The EPenguin who hasn't said anything beyond two posts, a fact you blissfully ignored. If there is anyone who we are to be waiting on, it would be him. For someone who stated that he valued Communication, he still hasn't done any communication. Surely those grounds are not without merit, yes?
I wasn't attacking you over your use of your vote in the game I was saying that at the time of my post you had neither changed your vote to someone you actually wanted lynched or extended, and that you should do one of the two, preferably extend. Why are you being overly defensive on this point?

Secondly, I'm not a fan of broad generalizations. Two votes does not a bandwagon make. Which is the number of votes Cheesecake had as of your unvote. That's not a whole helluva lot of people, so if you're going to call them out on their vote, why didn't you do so directly by name? Following immediately after that, you call for a vigilante to kill Cheesecake. Why not use the Day vote? The night is not something that any player should rely on. There are a great many things that can go wrong in the Night Phase, so why take the risk?
I didn't say there was a bandwagon, I said the sudden votes made me suspicious. Suspicious in my book means I don't really know what I find wrong with it but I'll mention it so I'll remember it. And at the time of my vote, Cake led the lynch. I didn't call out Peradon because he had voted cake early on about it, and Deus Asmoth I have yet to look back at his posts. I didn't call for a vig to kill cake, I mentioned the vig thing because I don't want to waste a lynch on cheesecake. If he turns up town, we learn nothing. If he turns out scum, we also learn nothing except the scumteam and maybe, just maybe who might be town.

Finally, who are you to say what was on Cheesecake's PM? He referred to the 'Cult Conversion Game Subset', not Cult team that we know of. In addition, implied that cult games are harder due to conversions. Now I should note, that the first Cult we ever had was a standard Kill Town Mafia agenda. The second 'Cult' team, had an anomaly 1-shot convert that Mephansteras failed to communicate to the players. They were still killing players with reckless abandon. In essence, they are like a traditional Mafia team. Werewolves are also a traditional Mafia team with a Kill Town agenda. Two scum teams from separate games. Same overall goals.

Therefore, I would not be surprised in the slightest if there is a Cult Conversion game going on here.
I've played Supernatural twice before, I've read through most if not all of the games, so I know the game. I even explained this stuff to spruce earlier.

Cheesecake never said anything  about a "cult conversion subset", he said this:
Jack A T: Well, there are more rolls. This is also cult, which I think is more difficult. Also, I'm not playing with beginners so I'm really just jumping in.
Peradon: I thought I saw it mentioned in the OP... Anyways, Mephansteras said that flavor was very important. The High Priest was murdered, God bless his soul, so maybe that's a clue?
Teneb: I actually thought there was a cult. I swear I saw it somewhere.

PPE: I think I condused it with Cult Mafia 2. I was reading it and I sorta messed it up.
There's nothing about a cult conversion subset, just mention this game was against cult, so if you're going to use quotes, use them correctly. Considering the fact that he didn't mention Vampires, and claimed he got confused with Cult Mafia 2, and given the fact he's new, I can understand how one could make that mistake. And if the scumteam turns out to be werewolves, guess who is in the clear? If there's a cult, they'll convert tonight, if not, we'll know there isn't one.
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Persus13

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Re: Supernatural 8 - Day 1 - Dark Night heralds a Bloody Dawn
« Reply #184 on: June 01, 2015, 08:07:15 pm »

Given the current state of the day, I'll add an Extend vote.
I want to see the responses to my (probably flawed) reasoning.
Didn't OSG say he had finals in Cult Mafia?

roo
@peradon If you think I am voting birdy because of an rvs question you clearly didnt bother to read the post try harder pls.
Roo: I've been doing a review, and I've noticed that you didn't actually reply to my RVS question. Take a minute and answer it.

How is my answer to this relevant to my alignment? (Might have phrased that wrong mev). I am okay with the meta being rqs what I am not okay with is extending it further than it needs to be.
Unvote
Birdy

Sure looks like you're doing that. Answer my question directly.
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birdy51

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Re: Supernatural 8 - Day 1 - Dark Night heralds a Bloody Dawn
« Reply #185 on: June 01, 2015, 09:14:03 pm »

Persus13: Your argument has some distinct holes in it. I will begin the dissection.

First, you make sure to mention my name as a player that isn't doing his part when my first vote was to apply pressure upon Spruce to get answers out of him, and my second vote was against EPenguin to get him back into the game. The EPenguin who hasn't said anything beyond two posts, a fact you blissfully ignored. If there is anyone who we are to be waiting on, it would be him. For someone who stated that he valued Communication, he still hasn't done any communication. Surely those grounds are not without merit, yes?

I wasn't attacking you over your use of your vote in the game I was saying that at the time of my post you had neither changed your vote to someone you actually wanted lynched or extended, and that you should do one of the two, preferably extend. Why are you being overly defensive on this point?
Quote
Extend, please join me, while extensions generally go needlessly unused, there are plenty of people who aren't voting (loking at you, flabort and TDS) not seriously voting (birdy) and its 3.5 hours away from day end, so this one would be good. I also just created a tie, although I'll be around to break it if necessary.

From my own perspective, this quote implies that you believe that I'm not doing what I can to help the town, only without the traditional blue finger of shame. It's a non-committal of sullying my reputation without going to the arena full-bore, which of course is going to catch my eye since I'm reactive as hell. Further, nowhere did you suggest that I personally should have extended the vote. Nor did you suggest that I do anything with my votes as far as my memory serves me. If you had an issue with that, why bring it up now at near the end of Day?

I've played Supernatural twice before, I've read through most if not all of the games, so I know the game. I even explained this stuff to spruce earlier.

Cheesecake never said anything  about a "cult conversion subset", he said this:
Jack A T: Well, there are more rolls. This is also cult, which I think is more difficult. Also, I'm not playing with beginners so I'm really just jumping in.
Peradon: I thought I saw it mentioned in the OP... Anyways, Mephansteras said that flavor was very important. The High Priest was murdered, God bless his soul, so maybe that's a clue?
Teneb: I actually thought there was a cult. I swear I saw it somewhere.

PPE: I think I condused it with Cult Mafia 2. I was reading it and I sorta messed it up.
There's nothing about a cult conversion subset, just mention this game was against cult, so if you're going to use quotes, use them correctly. Considering the fact that he didn't mention Vampires, and claimed he got confused with Cult Mafia 2, and given the fact he's new, I can understand how one could make that mistake. And if the scumteam turns out to be werewolves, guess who is in the clear? If there's a cult, they'll convert tonight, if not, we'll know there isn't one.

At this point, I believe our wires are hopelessly crossed. Let me reiterate my point again.

I believe and maintain that Cheesecake was referring to the Cult as a means of Conversion, and not the standard Kill Town and Threats Cults we have traditionally seen in past Supernatural games. Werewolves are the same as the two past Kill Town and Threats Cults we've seen, which is the only reason I brought them up. Barring the single instance Charismatic Cultist, there are no differences between them. You of all people should know this, considering it was covered by your first post on the thread.

---

Blergh. I'm getting tired at this point. If I missed anything, point it out and I'll get around to it. >.<
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EPenguin

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Re: Supernatural 8 - Day 1 - Dark Night heralds a Bloody Dawn
« Reply #186 on: June 01, 2015, 09:26:13 pm »

/replace out

sorry right now is just not a good time for me to be playing mafia.
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Persus13

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Re: Supernatural 8 - Day 1 - Dark Night heralds a Bloody Dawn
« Reply #187 on: June 01, 2015, 09:38:53 pm »

Persus13: Your argument has some distinct holes in it. I will begin the dissection.

First, you make sure to mention my name as a player that isn't doing his part when my first vote was to apply pressure upon Spruce to get answers out of him, and my second vote was against EPenguin to get him back into the game. The EPenguin who hasn't said anything beyond two posts, a fact you blissfully ignored. If there is anyone who we are to be waiting on, it would be him. For someone who stated that he valued Communication, he still hasn't done any communication. Surely those grounds are not without merit, yes?

I wasn't attacking you over your use of your vote in the game I was saying that at the time of my post you had neither changed your vote to someone you actually wanted lynched or extended, and that you should do one of the two, preferably extend. Why are you being overly defensive on this point?
Quote
Extend, please join me, while extensions generally go needlessly unused, there are plenty of people who aren't voting (loking at you, flabort and TDS) not seriously voting (birdy) and its 3.5 hours away from day end, so this one would be good. I also just created a tie, although I'll be around to break it if necessary.

From my own perspective, this quote implies that you believe that I'm not doing what I can to help the town, only without the traditional blue finger of shame. It's a non-committal of sullying my reputation without going to the arena full-bore, which of course is going to catch my eye since I'm reactive as hell. Further, nowhere did you suggest that I personally should have extended the vote. Nor did you suggest that I do anything with my votes as far as my memory serves me. If you had an issue with that, why bring it up now at near the end of Day?
If I had a issue with you voting Epenguin I would have voted for you, I try to avoid FOS because they're overused. I unvoted cheese in that post and if I had any problems with you I would have addressed you directly and voted you over it since my vote was free at the time. In fact, the only making me suspicious is your sudden defensiveness on this point, but I'm slowly understanding that you took it as an insult then as a reason why you should extend. And yes, I didn't suggest you change your vote because the whole point of the paragraph you quoted was to convince people to extend. I've voted lukers in the past myself to try to get a post out of them, but you seemed to have scummier targets than EPenguin.

There's nothing about a cult conversion subset, just mention this game was against cult, so if you're going to use quotes, use them correctly. Considering the fact that he didn't mention Vampires, and claimed he got confused with Cult Mafia 2, and given the fact he's new, I can understand how one could make that mistake. And if the scumteam turns out to be werewolves, guess who is in the clear? If there's a cult, they'll convert tonight, if not, we'll know there isn't one.

At this point, I believe our wires are hopelessly crossed. Let me reiterate my point again.

I believe and maintain that Cheesecake was referring to the Cult as a means of Conversion, and not the standard Kill Town and Threats Cults we have traditionally seen in past Supernatural games. Werewolves are the same as the two past Kill Town and Threats Cults we've seen, which is the only reason I brought them up. Barring the single instance Charismatic Cultist, there are no differences between them. You of all people should know this, considering it was covered by your first post on the thread.
[/quote]
I completely agree with you that he was referring to cult as a means of conversion. Since cheese is a beginner I assumed that if he had gotten a Vampire or Charismatic Cultist PM he wouldn't have referred to them as cult but as the flavor of the scumteam. So his explanation of his possible slip sounds plausible to me that he had mixed this game up with Cult Mafia because he's a beginner. At any rate, I'd like to defer his lynch until after we figure out the scumteam, unless he continues to behave in a scummy manner (which he hasn't besides that sudden change of subject, although he does need to post more), or I fail to find someone I'd rather lynch because they will provide more information and are scummy.

I think I understand what you mean though and I hope this post gives you further understanding of what I mean. I hope I haven't been to aggressive, I'm having a bit of a stressful time in RL.
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TheDarkStar

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Re: Supernatural 8 - Day 1 - Dark Night heralds a Bloody Dawn
« Reply #188 on: June 01, 2015, 09:51:43 pm »

Well, it looks like Day 1 isn't actually over because it got extended. I guess I'll go through the things I missed.



flabort:

That leaves a couple people with zero-to-no activity, EPenguin and OSG coming readily to mind.
In fact, Oragami has been even worse than spruce when it comes to being serious and answering questions straight. His two highest content posts are here and here: "I'm not going to base any arguments of of flavor text" and "My posts will be sparse", though up to that point they already were very sparse. There are a large number of questions directed at OSG which he hasn't answered, at least one of which are mine, and out of six posts four of them were completely shitposts.

Why do you think that a less active person (and one who has life getting in the way) should be lynched? You list your suspicions, but then you vote for someone completely unrelated. Why?



Been busy, just popping in for a bit. From what I read, I don't think that Cheesekake is guilty, but that is mainly a gut feeling. I am getting the

...what?



Two consecutive posts by Peradon and Deus::
Wait a second....

The opening post mentioned Rot. Doesnt rod spread? Wouldnt that imply that this actually is a cult?

And if it is a cult, that would make cheesecake much more suspicious, wouldnt it? Because if he had picked up on that, why didnt he tell us? And if he hadnt, then he got it from his role PM. Or, he could just have been reading the Cult game like he said...

Still, assuming that I'm right about the rot part, that's two-thirds chance that Cheesecake is scum. Thoughts on this theory?

It assumes that each scenario where cheese thinks there is a cult is equally likely, which I wouldn't say is true. On the other hand, I'd likely be voting for anyone else who made that kind of slip, so cheese

Peradon: That logic doesn't make sense. However, it does seem like you're trying to push a lynch on someone who is easily lynchable.

Deus Asmoth: Why would you vote for anyone who made that kind of slip? You voted for someone with three(?) votes on them already, and it's a short post that seems kind of lazy.



Another two consecutive posts:


I'm most suspicious of Teneb right now.

-lengthy explanation-


Yeah, Teneb, you big meanie. Answer the guy with the terrifying avatar.

spruce: Why did you think that Teneb should be voted for, especially so close to the lynch? You posted just after Jack did without adding any additional content, and that seems like you're just trying to push a lynch on someone.
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origamiscienceguy

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Re: Supernatural 8 - Day 1 - Dark Night heralds a Bloody Dawn
« Reply #189 on: June 01, 2015, 10:02:50 pm »

Sorry about that. My brother thought it would be funny if he pressed alt+s as he called me to dinner. Anyways, I was saying that since spruce came from a different community, I don't think he should be lynched JUST because of his... odd... behavior. I think cheesekake is just making newbie mistakes rather than scumslips. The person that rubs me the wrong way is Birdie, mainly on his highly reactive behavior. Can someone tell me if this is normal for him?

Also, I got to much to do, so I won't have time to search through the thread for old questions. If you want me to answer a question, could you please restate it? I'll answer them as best as I can.

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birdy51

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Re: Supernatural 8 - Day 1 - Dark Night heralds a Bloody Dawn
« Reply #190 on: June 01, 2015, 10:18:13 pm »

Done with reads, although I'll want to review them with fresh eyes. Expect em tomorrow with revisions.

---

I think I understand what you mean though and I hope this post gives you further understanding of what I mean. I hope I haven't been to aggressive, I'm having a bit of a stressful time in RL.

Persus13: Ees no problem. I could say the same thing, though for different reasons. Trying to cut down on nervous chatterisms of mine have probably left me sounding hyper-aggressive or cold at many points in this game thus far.

It's all good.

---

Sorry about that. My brother thought it would be funny if he pressed alt+s as he called me to dinner. Anyways, I was saying that since spruce came from a different community, I don't think he should be lynched JUST because of his... odd... behavior. I think cheesekake is just making newbie mistakes rather than scumslips. The person that rubs me the wrong way is Birdie, mainly on his highly reactive behavior. Can someone tell me if this is normal for him?

OSG: The answer is yes.

You have had, finals, correct? I noticed that earlier when I was doing my review.
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origamiscienceguy

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Re: Supernatural 8 - Day 1 - Dark Night heralds a Bloody Dawn
« Reply #191 on: June 01, 2015, 10:21:37 pm »

Correct. Got 6 more to do.
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spruce

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Re: Supernatural 8 - Day 1 - Dark Night heralds a Bloody Dawn
« Reply #192 on: June 01, 2015, 11:16:42 pm »

spruce: Why did you think that Teneb should be voted for, especially so close to the lynch? You posted just after Jack did without adding any additional content, and that seems like you're just trying to push a lynch on someone.

Read earlier, DarkStar. Jack alluded to the same thing, but though his vote preceded mine, I actually made the first case on Teneb. Jack just did it better than I, and some might have thought I was simply being vengeful, but if you'll read my explanation, I wasn't.
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Peradon

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Re: Supernatural 8 - Day 1 - Dark Night heralds a Bloody Dawn
« Reply #193 on: June 02, 2015, 12:17:58 am »

Peradon: Start of D1 flavour has traditionally not been very informative, though it is not without value.  The rot can just as easily be a reference to rotten, crooked scum as it could be to a spreading cult.  Also, coming up with two scenarios in which Cheesecake is scum and one in which he's town does not make a 2/3 chance he's scum.
The Rot sounds a lot like a disease to me. I dont know, right now this is just speculation I guess.

Also, I came up with three of the most likely scenarios. Can you come up with some other likely ones? If I deemed them worthy, I would include those in my analysis. But if those are accurate scenarios, why isnt it a 2/3rd chance?

Quote from: TDS
Peradon: That logic doesn't make sense. However, it does seem like you're trying to push a lynch on someone who is easily lynchable.
You simply state that the logic doesnt make sense. If you wish to refute me, you should probably say why it doesn't make sense.

Quote from: Persus13
Actually no. There's either a 100% chance he's scum or a 100% chance he's town (and a 100% chance he's third party). Cheesecake's role has already been given to him, so probability doesn't work that way.
Actually, the probability does work that way. It is an uncertainty, whether he is scum or not, thus there is a natural 50/50 chance he is scum(Not taking into account the number of starting scum Vs the number of starting players).

In short, Schrodinger's cat.



So, reading through the day, I thought Jacks Jack's argument against (Unvote) [/b][/color=red]Teneb[/color][/b] was pretty good. Selectively presenting evidence is a pretty big scumtell in my opinion.



FlabortTDS already asked this, but why vote for someone based on activity alone, especially when someone has had less activity than the person you voted for?
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Ya'll need Jesus. Just sayin'.

flabort

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Re: Supernatural 8 - Day 1 - Dark Night heralds a Bloody Dawn
« Reply #194 on: June 02, 2015, 01:40:06 am »

I didn't vote based on activity alone. You don't see a vote on EPenguin from me, eh?

I also pointed out in the paragraph where I explained my reasoning for my vote that he's been worse than spruce at being serious and keeping the joking to a minimum (Magma, for example). As I said, out of six posts (eight now), one (three now) mentions life issues, one is pertaining to the game, and the rest are junk. I don't like that junk.
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The Cyan Menace

Went away for a while, came back, went away for a while, and back for now.
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