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[Ribs]

Well, I'm thinking more worldgen academies. But I have to keep in mind dorfy academies.

I don't think it should be "like a tavern" in that you say:

Hey! I want an academy here and here! I want a masonry academy right now and Urist Momuzidek (an adequate mason, who recently immigrated and took up mining due to the lack of work.) is the headmaster!

I do like the idea that a dwarf might decide to build an academy at your fortress, when he feels he is a master (not objective, depends on confidence.) and he becomes a noble, a headmaster who still performs his labors in conjunction with teaching and headmastering, in which he then asks for dorms, dining rooms and classrooms in which to establish his academy.

The creation of an academy shouldn't be something that a dwarf decides on their own, however.  It should involve something like royal decree or recognition of mastery by other dwarves to the point that people start naturally coming to your fort just to meet the legendary weaver dwarf that crafted that artifact cat bone sock.

Well, it could be a mix of all those things. Apparently, outsiders are going to be able to make petitions now to become citizens. Could be a similar thing where a skilled dwarf or a certain guild would make a petition to the mayor/baron/king for an academy to be made.

Alternatively,  maybe a group of wealthy nobles/scholars would come to your fortress and offer high sums of money for a guild to be made there (of course you'd build it, but they would run it and maybe pay taxes or something).

I always enjoyed the idea of (if we get at least a proto-economy  going) having wealthy people or organizations comming to you and offering you money to build things for them in your fortress, like private mantions, odd business or something like that.

And to go back to the academy idea, I again think it's a very good one.  I'd personally love a concept like becoming the headquarters of a specific guild, and being the place that all the would-be architechts in the realm go to study advanced techniques like job cancellation traps. (What do you mean that's not a real skill?!)

Maybe one day our veteran dwarves will write great manuals of advanced martial training techniques, like spending months at a time in a tiny room continuously dodging training wooden spears moved by a contraption on the floor.

[Ribs]

Oh, and I also like the royal decree aspect of it. Although, I think organizations other than the crown could have an interest in building an academy in your fortress.

Going back to the medieval era, universities in cities were generally funded and run by the church. There could be multiple groups interested in funding a project like that, maybe even wealthy individuals.

[Alfrodo]

On tuition:

if we ever get the economy going, visiting students will have to pay a tuition based, again, on the personality of the initial headmaster. (They can get replaced, but their legacy lives on in policies.)

 A greedy headmaster is likely to charge more for tuition, a racist one is more likely to charge higher tuition for elves, kobolds and furries animal folk, a lusty one is likely to lower tuition to "accommodate" attractive folk. (The worst headmaster would be a greedy, racist, asexual one.)

The money then goes to the headmaster and any other teachers or the like.

Without the economy, non-citizen students would be expected to pay in goods (generally hauled with them if they want to enroll, a student comes with 3 bagfuls of untasty finger limes) and citizen students freeload.



Also, we've got a few methods for establishment here.

Urist måmgoziod wants to establish a carpentry academy, he asks the duchess for consent. [Alfrodo]

Urist måmgoziod has had several students coming to him recently and has had difficulty managing them. He asks the duchess for consent to make an academy to simplify his life. [Kohaku]

Urist måmgoziod is appointed headmaster of a carpentry academy comissioned by a group of wealthy Scholars who bribed the duchess into the deal with a massive pile of untasty finger limes. [Ribs]

[Ribs]

On tuition:


Urist måmgoziod is appointed headmaster of a carpentry academy comissioned by a group of wealthy Scholars who bribed the duchess into the deal with a massive pile of untasty finger limes. [Ribs]

I wasn't necessarily thinking of bribery, but I guess that works too. Seriously though, I was thinking more of a contract. Things cost time and money (or at least resources). Maybe you can decide to do it for free, but I think most investors wouldn't expect it as a possibility. Maybe you could, indeed, ask for the fortress duchess or the mountainhome queen for help, and she would send you help thinking of all the glory and prestige she'll get by funding a learing center.

Guilds halls are things that are more likely to be asked (or even demanded) by your organized laborers to be build, but I think of academies as more commonly build as prestigious learning centers for the wealthy or influential. In fact, I wasn't even thinking of academies for crafting type labors ( like masonry, carpentry, pottery, etc), as guilds will be more involved in teaching those. I was thinking of academies for more 'noble' schools of learning, such as war, law, architecture and maybe even philosophy.

Considering dwarves do culturally value craftsdwarship more than anything else, there could be academies for crafting jobs I guess, but I'm thinking that they would still be a separate thing for the more influential people (maybe even if working together with guilds).

[NW_Kohaku]

Well, I went into more detail on it in the Class Warfare thread, but historically, most Medieval societies didn't actually use coinage within a single town.  (Exceptions being cities large enough that everyone was functionally anonymous to one another.) There quite simply was not enough precious metal to make currency from.  (And much of that currency tended to be traded to China in exchange for porcelain over the Silk Road to the point that until the Spanish started looting the Americas, Europe was literally running out of metal.)

As such, coinage was really only ever used by merchants traveling between nations and trading with people they wouldn't meet again, which necessitated a settling of accounts at every trade.

The majority of trades were done on credit, not unlike how DF used to handle trading within the fortress... and a lot of trading by people who knew they would have significant ongoing contact with (I.E. fellow members of a single community) was done without explicit definition of the values of the goods and services traded.  That is, they just "owed him one". 

Hence, it makes some sense to have an academy's tuition go to the fortress's coffers as a whole, and make the economy only work as the fortress relating to the rest of the world, rather than the individual residents of the fortress to each other. 

One of the major reasons the economy of past versions fell apart was because haulers almost inevitably wound up as beggars nearly starving to death, yet served a vital fortress function.  (Of course, something more like a salary system would help with that...)


Also,

Urist måmgoziod has had several students coming to him recently and has had difficulty managing them. He asks the duchess for consent to make an academy to simplify his life. [Kohaku]

I'm not thinking that you need permissions per se for the idea I'm thinking about.

More like, you just have instruction as a part of a dwarf's possible labors, or a zone or something you can choose to set up whether anyone wants it or not.  The master smith might take on an apprentice or something of their own volition if you don't explicitly forbid it. Or, you have a class on smithing for your own dwarves (teach them up to novice weaponsmith before banishing them to hauling duty or milking or something in case of moods) and some visitors start sitting in on classes for pay.

Academies, then, are simply when you actively start organizing the instruction.  There isn't a formal difference recognizing when a single class has turned into a full institution with a system like that, there is simply greater demand and more classes.

It would also mean that you wouldn't have something like a limit of two academies per fortress, it's just what you actually dedicate time and space towards teaching.

[Alfrodo]

Urist måmgoziod has had several students coming to him recently and has had difficulty managing them. He asks the duchess for consent to make an academy to simplify his life. [Kohaku]

I'm not thinking that you need permissions per se for the idea I'm thinking about.

More like, you just have instruction as a part of a dwarf's possible labors, or a zone or something you can choose to set up whether anyone wants it or not.  The master smith might take on an apprentice or something of their own volition if you don't explicitly forbid it. Or, you have a class on smithing for your own dwarves (teach them up to novice weaponsmith before banishing them to hauling duty or milking or something in case of moods) and some visitors start sitting in on classes for pay.

Academies, then, are simply when you actively start organizing the instruction.  There isn't a formal difference recognizing when a single class has turned into a full institution with a system like that, there is simply greater demand and more classes.

It would also mean that you wouldn't have something like a limit of two academies per fortress, it's just what you actually dedicate time and space towards teaching.

What I meant by simplifying his life was allowing him organize his students and teach them all at the same time.

So, Guild moneys go to the fortress and not the guild?

I guess they'd only go to the guild if the economy is in effect, if it is not, then the money/goods go to the collective fortress.

[Ribs]

Well, I went into more detail on it in the Class Warfare thread, but historically, most Medieval societies didn't actually use coinage within a single town.  (Exceptions being cities large enough that everyone was functionally anonymous to one another.) There quite simply was not enough precious metal to make currency from.  (And much of that currency tended to be traded to China in exchange for porcelain over the Silk Road to the point that until the Spanish started looting the Americas, Europe was literally running out of metal.)

As such, coinage was really only ever used by merchants traveling between nations and trading with people they wouldn't meet again, which necessitated a settling of accounts at every trade.

The majority of trades were done on credit, not unlike how DF used to handle trading within the fortress... and a lot of trading by people who knew they would have significant ongoing contact with (I.E. fellow members of a single community) was done without explicit definition of the values of the goods and services traded.  That is, they just "owed him one". 

Hence, it makes some sense to have an academy's tuition go to the fortress's coffers as a whole, and make the economy only work as the fortress relating to the rest of the world, rather than the individual residents of the fortress to each other. 

One of the major reasons the economy of past versions fell apart was because haulers almost inevitably wound up as beggars nearly starving to death, yet served a vital fortress function.  (Of course, something more like a salary system would help with that...)

Yes, I was actually considering that very few people would have access to money at all. So you'd get your rare wealthy individuals who would have access to coin in your fortress ( so they would have their personal coffers full of coins and you'd probably be able to tax them in certain circunstances to fill up the fortress' coffers). I do agree that most people in your fortress wouldn't use coins on a daily basis, and some would even not have any money, but some possibly would for some reason or another. That's why I mentioned the odd wealthy city merchant, trader or nobleman who could decide to settle in your fortress or start some sort of "business venture" there. That's the kind of people who are likely to have coin.

So yes, maybe it would be in your best interest to make the academy entirely controlled by the community (maybe even preffered by distrusting dwarves that don't like the idea of silly foreigners thinking they can run their fortress for them!)

But maybe it would be interesting if there were alternatives, such as very wealthy individuals who own a lot of money (the same type who'll have large mannors we'll probably be interested in robbing when Toady gets to the thief arc) offering you a deal:
"Here's a bunch of money, so you will let us run an academy in your fortress. Deal? Y/N". Maybe it would be less profitable in the long run, but it's not that unreasonable. Just a fun alternative

Also, if it ever comes to having all dwarves deppending on money again(I started playing back in the 40d days, so I do remember), just make certain jobs be mantained by wages (like the salary system, as you suggested). It doesn't even make sense for certain professions not to, like professional soldiers.

[Alfrodo]

so... Guilds will be fortress run and not independent organizations?

[Ribs]

so... Guilds will be fortress run and not independent organizations?

Both? If they are in your fortress, they are run by your citizens. If the laborers can choose their own guildmaser, and he has some external influence (like making deals with other cities on their own), you could say that it has some independence from your mayor/baron.

Maybe some guilds are strong enough that they have more influence than the crown. Think of large corporations of workers.

[Alfrodo]

we(I) seem to be using Academy and guild interchangeably. Should we flesh that out a little?

Guilds are a group of individuals with a similar profession, with teaching secondary (Think Riften's Thieves guild)

Academies are exclusively teaching. (Think Solitude's Bard's College.)

[NW_Kohaku]

Actually, even "wealthy" people in Medieval life rarely had money on-hand.  At least, cash-money - they usually had some pawnable silverware or something.  Even large money transfers were done by accountants at the local monastery purely on paper. 

In fact, part of why Europe's counties are such a mess is that, when gambling, nobles would often gamble their land, which could actually be fairly assessed, rather than money.  This resulted in peasants frequently not knowing who was actually their lord that week, since they could have been lost to another neighboring lord over a hand of cards last weekend.   For that matter, they frequently didn't particularly care, since the lord mostly only mattered when they collected taxes, and taxation was usually fixed. 

It wouldn't be historically inaccurate for someone to come in with nothing but trader credits for use on the next dwarven caravan as payment. 

so... Guilds will be fortress run and not independent organizations?

An "academy" might be fortress-run or guild-run. (And if we're going by the model of tutoring or apprenticeship without a formal declaration of academies, there might not even be an academy, just some guy that buys training like a traveler might buy a *dwarven syrup roast [10]* for the road.)

Doing things that rake in money for the fortress as a whole and raise its stature may not result in direct remuneration in a fortress, but may carry with it a ton of fame and respect, which, depending on culture, may be worth more, anyway.

One of the other things covered in Debt: The First 5000 Years was that civilizations that elect leaders by popular consent (I.E. the mayor) tended to be led by the most materially poor citizens, as they tended to be constantly doing favors and lending things out to maintain their popularity, whereas power through inheritance naturally led to the hoarding of wealth. 

Hence, a skilled dwarf might teach and spread word of their works and teaching skill for the social ramifications rather than the wealth.  DF is also a world where the afterlife comes to you, in the form of ghosts and Toady has said that afterlives should be visitable, so it's entirely possible for a dwarf to be motivated by their ethics of creating great works of craftsdwarfship over monetary rewards.  (And historically, most Medieval artists were driven by religious faith and almost expressly created art devoted to religious themes.) Such workers wouldn't pay much mind to the fortress as a whole taking up their profits. 


If the guild is operating as an independent entity, it opens up a different can of worms in that you might be a step removed in its operation.  They're simply renting space from you, and you might not control their employees, since you'd be damaging their business if you took back space or resources from them.  This can have serious ramifications for the running of your fortress if your fortress has to feed some guild resources, but have only indirect control over what products are spit back out in return.  (You really need a half-dozen magma-proof enormous corkscrews NOW, but today, the guild feels like using your steel to make goblets, instead!)

Also,

Would you even consider changing the relationship that the player has with the dwarves right now (as unquestioned overlord and direct allower and denier of all things dwarves can and cannot do), so that dwarves can become more autonomous and individual, and possibly create a better simulation, while on the other hand, potentially dramatically upping the potential for Fun because dwarves are stupid and very likely to hurt themselves unless continually babysat, or perhaps more importantly, if it meant that the player had less direct control over his fortress, and had to rely more on coaxing the ants in his/her antfarm to do his/her bidding?

Our eventual goal is to have the player's role be the embodiment of positions of power within the fortress, performing actions in their official capacity, to the point that in an ideal world each command you give would be linked to some noble, official or commander.  I don't think coaxing is the way I'm thinking of it though, as with a game like Majesty which somebody brought up, because your orders would also carry the weight of being assumed to be for survival for the most part, not as bounties or a similar system.  Once your fortress is larger, you might have to work a little harder to keep people around, but your dwarves in the first year would be more like crew taking orders from the captain of a ship out to sea or something, where you'd have difficulty getting them to do what you want only if you've totally flopped and they are ready to defy the expedition leader.

Anyway, a lot of that is stuff I was talking about in Class Warfare... (I really need to go back to that thread soon...)

[Ribs]

Actually, even "wealthy" people in Medieval life rarely had money on-hand.  At least, cash-money - they usually had some pawnable silverware or something.  Even large money transfers were done by accountants at the local monastery purely on paper. 

In fact, part of why Europe's counties are such a mess is that, when gambling, nobles would often gamble their land, which could actually be fairly assessed, rather than money.  This resulted in peasants frequently not knowing who was actually their lord that week, since they could have been lost to another neighboring lord over a hand of cards last weekend.   For that matter, they frequently didn't particularly care, since the lord mostly only mattered when they collected taxes, and taxation was usually fixed. 

How about renascence, 1400's Italian merchant republics/wealthy kingdoms and duchies, etc? Maybe I've been throwing the term "medieval" around a bit too much. I know that until around the 1000's, there were barely any real cities in continental europe. Even things like locks were hard to come by during the fabled 'dark ages', because most people lived in very small communities and everyone knew each other (and, frankly, there was nothing to steal)

Still, we are accustumed to rpgs with 'functional' (even if a bit fantastic) coin based economies and that's probably what we'll have in DF. The game was certainly going that route before, although there were weird things like specific dwarves and nobles being exempted from the system.

Considering how much wealth a successful fortress can create, and how greedy dwarves can be, it wouldn't surprise me if they decided to go a little more independent, demanding actual pay for their work having he fortress share it's vast hoard of gold, silver and gems to the citizens who helped to build it! Especially if your fortress is, in fact, the administrative capital of a vast surrounding population, with thousands of deep dwarves living under them in the caverns,and thousands more living as peasants in hillocks. Maybe they'd even go for a completely coin based economy if you're wealthy enough, and accumulated enough precious metals.

Was this discussed in your class warfare thread? You really should update it , it's an interesting topic and it seems to have made you more knolwedgeable about medieval society. I'll take a look some other time

[Ribs]

we(I) seem to be using Academy and guild interchangeably. Should we flesh that out a little?

Guilds are a group of individuals with a similar profession, with teaching secondary (Think Riften's Thieves guild)

Academies are exclusively teaching. (Think Solitude's Bard's College.)

Sure, that's a reasonable distincion.

[Alfrodo]

Okay. So let me try to sum this up. So I can understand

Let's just use another in game example, using a random dorf and a different founding type.

A Wealthy Noble appears at the walls of Appleaxe in year 63, he offers a few goods with a total value of 6000☼ in exchange for his Armoring/Philosophy* academy to be built.  He and Ezum Eribgitnuk, a non-local legendary armorsmith, are appointed headmasters.*

Ezum's values and personality and how it influences policies:

Persistent, Skill and Craftsmanship: Higher Graduating Expectations for Students, and room quality.

Law and Honesty: She will not tolerate any misbehavior, and will generally be dedicated to her position.

Friendship, Family, Fair dealing and Loyalty: Is very accepting of new students, and has low prerequisites.

Commerce: Maybe a little more tuition...**

Leisure Time, Merriment, Impulsive: Less Frequent Classes, Generally provides better dining halls.

Martial Prowess: Not applicable in armorsmith setting, if it were a kicker academy, it would affect class frequency and expectation.

Not self-indulgent,humble, Dislikes art: Reduced required Room quality.

Untrusting, Merciless, not curious: More likely to reject students.

hopeful about future, dislikes nature: N/A


Students arrive from within the fortress and as visitors. They pay a 150☼ tuition**, which goes to the academy.

About 20% of students are turned down.

Most of them stay for about a year before "graduating" and becoming armorsmiths or wandering philosophers. A few stay and become teachers themselves.

*Multi purpose academies, think Harvard. Does harvard just teach mathematics? no, different subjects = different headmasters, but a main headmaster (the dorf.) will determine policies.

**I see that the concept of money was under dispute, and who carries it. (Keep in mind DF =/= RL) What I had in mind is that tuitions would fund the academy, which let it "buy" materials off of the fortress if it needed them (cheaper materials would be preferred, you don't want your students working with gold or yew, do you?), in the economy, but otherwise. It'll just eat up fortress resources and produce semi-random products, and skilled craftsfolk.

[Antsan]

To the whole debate on skill and books: Hasn't Toady already talked about how he wants to differentiate between knowledge and skill sometime in the future?