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[Curious Key]

Ok, so in my most recent fort I'm noticing some strangeness with negative thoughts relating to death. (I don't know if the same behaviours extend beyond these, it's just these thoughts that I've been tracking)

Firstly, I've been getting "witnessing death" thoughts from "within the last season" lasting well over a year. A dwarf will show "within the last season, X dwarf was horrified from witnessing death" but that thought will persist in some cases for over 2 years.

Also, almost all of those "witnessed death" thoughts are not actually from witnessing death, but from being near to or hauling corpses (mostly goblins).

Is this intended behaviour? It just seems strange that "within the last season" lasts more than a season, and that "witnessing death" seems to extend to seeing anything dead regardless of how long it's been dead for.

And currently I have some dwarfs who have stuff like witnessed death x75 from hauling goblin pieces.

[Pirate Santa]

Whether or not it's intended dwarves will now be horrified every time they see part of a dead sentient creature.
Magma, atom smashers and deep pits are effective countermeasures.

[Curious Key]

Whether or not it's intended dwarves will now be horrified every time they see part of a dead sentient creature.
Magma, atom smashers and deep pits are effective countermeasures.

Yeah, I was just curious why it listed that as witnessing death, rather than seeing a corpse or something. Seems to me that actually seeing something die would be more horrifying than just seeing a severed goblin toe.

And considering that I have not so far witnessed a death-related negative thought expire, even after years, it doesn't take much contact to build up tantrum-worthy levels. Shouldn't these thoughts be expiring at some point? Even with atom smashing, a dwarf has to haul the corpses over to the garbage dump.

[PatrikLundell]

This is the way it works, and it's probably intentional, although the presentation is somewhat off.
Each time a dorf sees a corpse the timer for that corpse is reset, and it's reported as "witnessing death" when it's rather a matter of seeing a corpse.
The standard method of dealing with this is to separate "sentient" corpses from others to reduce exposure. This separation can be achieved either via dual refuse stockpiles or through dumping (which interferes with dumping for e.g. captive stripping purposes).
The "sentient" corpses can either be disposed of through magma or atom smashing, or be hidden by being thrown into a hole so they're out of sight.
Personally I use the dual stockpile method where I have a regular refuse stockpile that excludes all the "sentients" I've discovered feeding a QS. This is complemented with a QS fed by a refuse stockpile that forbids all and then adds all the "sentients" excluded above. The QS dumps into a hole with an exclusive refuse stockpile at the bottom (I have a staircase both to get the miner out and to allow the occasional production of goblin bone helmets).
A couple of notes:
- FBs and Titans aren't listed in the refuse sub menues. To exclude those from the "sentient" stockpile (if you're dumping into magma) you have to "forbid all" and then add the sentients (which you probably do anyway).
- Corpses of hostile dwarves (e.g. undead or necros) aren't affected by the refuse-corpses setting (even if dwarf is listed there) but rather by the top level corpse stockpile (parallel to refuse).
- HFS are both "sentient" and unlisted like FBs, messing things up.
- The reason for the quote around the "sentient" description is that the category includes creatures that aren't particularly sentient, such as Reachers.

Other conversation occurred while writing:
- Death thoughts expire after a season or so if not refreshed.

[Curious Key]

This is the way it works, and it's probably intentional, although the presentation is somewhat off.
Each time a dorf sees a corpse the timer for that corpse is reset, and it's reported as "witnessing death" when it's rather a matter of seeing a corpse.
The standard method of dealing with this is to separate "sentient" corpses from others to reduce exposure. This separation can be achieved either via dual refuse stockpiles or through dumping (which interferes with dumping for e.g. captive stripping purposes).
The "sentient" corpses can either be disposed of through magma or atom smashing, or be hidden by being thrown into a hole so they're out of sight.
Personally I use the dual stockpile method where I have a regular refuse stockpile that excludes all the "sentients" I've discovered feeding a QS. This is complemented with a QS fed by a refuse stockpile that forbids all and then adds all the "sentients" excluded above. The QS dumps into a hole with an exclusive refuse stockpile at the bottom (I have a staircase both to get the miner out and to allow the occasional production of goblin bone helmets).
A couple of notes:
- FBs and Titans aren't listed in the refuse sub menues. To exclude those from the "sentient" stockpile (if you're dumping into magma) you have to "forbid all" and then add the sentients (which you probably do anyway).
- Corpses of hostile dwarves (e.g. undead or necros) aren't affected by the refuse-corpses setting (even if dwarf is listed there) but rather by the top level corpse stockpile (parallel to refuse).
- HFS are both "sentient" and unlisted like FBs, messing things up.
- The reason for the quote around the "sentient" description is that the category includes creatures that aren't particularly sentient, such as Reachers.

Other conversation occurred while writing:
- Death thoughts expire after a season or so if not refreshed.

Aha. In that case I may have a solution to the problem. Despite my garbage dump being down a hole, perhaps it's not deep enough, and the haulers taking excess stone etc are seeing the goblin salsa. (everyone hates goblin salsa). Cheers

[PatrikLundell]

A QS sending the goblins down the hole will shield the dorfs from seeing down the hole of the feeder stockpile is on one side of the mine cart and the hole on the other.
Also, anyone going down there to retrieve bone for carving, wool for spinning, and hides for tanning will see the mess.

[Corona688]

I dig graves to mass-dump in, then build floors over them.

[Curious Key]

A QS sending the goblins down the hole will shield the dorfs from seeing down the hole of the feeder stockpile is on one side of the mine cart and the hole on the other.
Also, anyone going down there to retrieve bone for carving, wool for spinning, and hides for tanning will see the mess.

I'm not very well-versed in the way of quantum stockpiling, but that does sound like a very good idea. One thing, I'd like to be able to atom smash or otherwise annihilate the salsa once in a while, (I use far less bones than I "create" through my "cultural exchanges", but stockpiles are considered buildings and prevent bridges from being built on them.. So is there a way of setting this design up with a garbage dump?

[Corona688]

If you have an endless water source like an aquifer or river, you can push the goblin corpses onto the bridge with water.

Or, for that matter, the live ones.

[PatrikLundell]

One way to combine refuse and atom smashing is to dig a hole, put an atom smashing bridge at the bottom, and then make the bottom inaccessible either by bricking it up or by controlling access with a locked hatch or door. You then won't have a refuse stockpile at the bottom (and thus no refuse stockpile accelerated degrading, for better and for worse), but if stuff is dumped down an inaccessible hole, the dorfs won't try to haul it back up.
Another way is to dump the refuse you want to get rid of onto the bridge and then smash it, but that locks the dumping function up.

However, I still recommend separating sentient refuse from the regular stuff, and goblin salsa doesn't matter of nobody gets to see it.

I get rid of the excess bones by producing bone greaves, gauntlets, and helmets, while horn, teeth, etc. are converted into trade junk for trade disposal. I sell off all armor that's not masterworks (as I do with all clothing unfit for usage by my dorfs).

Understanding the wonder of the QS is very useful indeed. The main issue is that it can be considered an exploit. Setting up a QS is actually very simple, although there are multiple ways of bungle it.
- Build a track stop set to dump in a chosen direction (if DFHack is used, a plugin allows you to change track stop properties after the stop has been constructed, as well as view it. In vanilla you're blind and get what you constructed, so when in doubt you deconstruct and rebuild).
- Set up a single tile stockpile on the tile the track stop is set to dump. Set it to accept all items you want to have in it and set it to take from links only. Don't forget to remove bin/barrel usage. It doesn't matter if it's set to accept more than you actually intend to store in it, since it will only hold what's put in it. For a sentient refuse QS, for instance, just setting it up for refuse will be sufficient, since the track stop will only dump sentients. Note that for a sentient refuse QS, this stockpile can be placed at the bottom of a hole below the dumping tile.
- Once the track stop is built (not mandatory, but I have my misgivings about full stockpiles), define a feeder stockpile the defines exactly what you want to store adjacent to the track stop. It should not take bins or barrels, but may use wheel barrows (useful if stone is stored, for example). I normally make these stockpiles something like 2*3 tiles in size.
- Create a new route (I typically name them "Workshop QS", "Sentient Refuse QS", etc), and then a Stop on top of the track stop. Make sure to remove all departure conditions from the stop, and to add the same broad category item selection as you used for the "links only" stockpile above, and then set the stop to take from the feeder stockpile defined in the step above. Since everything is taken from the feeder stockpile, you'll only actually handle what gets into it, so again, it doesn't matter if it covers too much.
- Assign a mine cart to the QS route.
If done properly, dorfs will now haul stuff to the feeder stockpile, then take said stuff from the feeder stockpile and load it into the mine cart (once it has been placed, of course), and the track stop will immediately dump the stuff put into the cart onto the final stockpile tile.

[Curious Key]

(derp quote)

[Curious Key]

One way to combine refuse and atom smashing is to dig a hole, put an atom smashing bridge at the bottom, and then make the bottom inaccessible either by bricking it up or by controlling access with a locked hatch or door. You then won't have a refuse stockpile at the bottom (and thus no refuse stockpile accelerated degrading, for better and for worse), but if stuff is dumped down an inaccessible hole, the dorfs won't try to haul it back up.
Another way is to dump the refuse you want to get rid of onto the bridge and then smash it, but that locks the dumping function up.

However, I still recommend separating sentient refuse from the regular stuff, and goblin salsa doesn't matter of nobody gets to see it.

I get rid of the excess bones by producing bone greaves, gauntlets, and helmets, while horn, teeth, etc. are converted into trade junk for trade disposal. I sell off all armor that's not masterworks (as I do with all clothing unfit for usage by my dorfs).

Understanding the wonder of the QS is very useful indeed. The main issue is that it can be considered an exploit. Setting up a QS is actually very simple, although there are multiple ways of bungle it.
- Build a track stop set to dump in a chosen direction (if DFHack is used, a plugin allows you to change track stop properties after the stop has been constructed, as well as view it. In vanilla you're blind and get what you constructed, so when in doubt you deconstruct and rebuild).
- Set up a single tile stockpile on the tile the track stop is set to dump. Set it to accept all items you want to have in it and set it to take from links only. Don't forget to remove bin/barrel usage. It doesn't matter if it's set to accept more than you actually intend to store in it, since it will only hold what's put in it. For a sentient refuse QS, for instance, just setting it up for refuse will be sufficient, since the track stop will only dump sentients. Note that for a sentient refuse QS, this stockpile can be placed at the bottom of a hole below the dumping tile.
- Once the track stop is built (not mandatory, but I have my misgivings about full stockpiles), define a feeder stockpile the defines exactly what you want to store adjacent to the track stop. It should not take bins or barrels, but may use wheel barrows (useful if stone is stored, for example). I normally make these stockpiles something like 2*3 tiles in size.
- Create a new route (I typically name them "Workshop QS", "Sentient Refuse QS", etc), and then a Stop on top of the track stop. Make sure to remove all departure conditions from the stop, and to add the same broad category item selection as you used for the "links only" stockpile above, and then set the stop to take from the feeder stockpile defined in the step above. Since everything is taken from the feeder stockpile, you'll only actually handle what gets into it, so again, it doesn't matter if it covers too much.
- Assign a mine cart to the QS route.
If done properly, dorfs will now haul stuff to the feeder stockpile, then take said stuff from the feeder stockpile and load it into the mine cart (once it has been placed, of course), and the track stop will immediately dump the stuff put into the cart onto the final stockpile tile.

Thanks, that's been very helpful. I set it up and it's working nicely. Now most of my dwarfs have no "witnessed death" thought anymore, however it seems to take a dwarf at say 300k stress years to go down even 10k stress, even without the presence of the bad thought that originally caused the stress. Is it just me, or does stress take far too long to go down?

Edit: derp quote due to forums acting oddly

[PatrikLundell]

Stress reduction is slow, because both stress build up and reduction is based on adding and subtracting from a stress bucket. Thus, stress doesn't go away because stressors are removed, but is rather chipped away by positive thoughts that no longer are counteracted by negative ones. Thus, things that cause positive thoughts gradually reduce stress, and the more positive thoughts the faster the stress level is depleted. Probably the joy of seeing an artifact statue reduces the stress level more than a masterworks one, although I have no proof of that.
A legendary dining room, very nice quarters, nice furniture to admire especially their own, nice chats with friends, waterfalls, food variety and quality are all things that generate positive thoughts, although I guess different dorfs have different triggers. If I understand it correctly, pampering dorfs with providing them with stuff made of their favorite materials would help even further (replacing the gabbro lover's orthoclase masterworks chest with a gabbro masterworks chest, for instance). Again, I have no proof, though.
Getting an engraver to first smooth the stone in the dining hall and other parts of the fortress, and then engrave it (when the skill has increased) should do a fair bit to promote happiness, as well as increasing the value of the fortress. Engraving the dorfs' bed rooms with masterworks engravings increases the value of the bed rooms, and thus, the happy thoughts produced by the very nice rooms.

Welcome to the QS addict's club

[Curious Key]

Stress reduction is slow, because both stress build up and reduction is based on adding and subtracting from a stress bucket. Thus, stress doesn't go away because stressors are removed, but is rather chipped away by positive thoughts that no longer are counteracted by negative ones. Thus, things that cause positive thoughts gradually reduce stress, and the more positive thoughts the faster the stress level is depleted. Probably the joy of seeing an artifact statue reduces the stress level more than a masterworks one, although I have no proof of that.
A legendary dining room, very nice quarters, nice furniture to admire especially their own, nice chats with friends, waterfalls, food variety and quality are all things that generate positive thoughts, although I guess different dorfs have different triggers. If I understand it correctly, pampering dorfs with providing them with stuff made of their favorite materials would help even further (replacing the gabbro lover's orthoclase masterworks chest with a gabbro masterworks chest, for instance). Again, I have no proof, though.
Getting an engraver to first smooth the stone in the dining hall and other parts of the fortress, and then engrave it (when the skill has increased) should do a fair bit to promote happiness, as well as increasing the value of the fortress. Engraving the dorfs' bed rooms with masterworks engravings increases the value of the bed rooms, and thus, the happy thoughts produced by the very nice rooms.

Welcome to the QS addict's club

Thanks for the welcome. Yeah that's what I was starting to think, that i've just built up a huge "stockpile" of first-world problems. Thing is, all my base-level citizens have a room with bed, table, chair, two iron statues, and engraved floors, and they're still decreasing very slowly. I have a plan though. I'm building a new fancy dining hall that I'm gonna set up some artifact furniture in, hopefully a dining hall grossing a few hundred thousand urists will give it a bit of a boost. It's either that or resign myself to all my haulers eventually killing each other.

[PatrikLundell]

A legendary dining room helps a fair bit, I think. Legendary meals do as well. Having a mayor who's good at dealing with people yelling at him/crying at his shoulder probably helps as well. If there are many dorfs in his therapy queue (they're listed as scheduling/conducting a meeting, or somesuch in the jobs list) you should probably relieve him of all other jobs. note that a mayor can actually appoint a replacement for himself, which I do at every election to get someone who won't generate a lot of stupid construction mandates, but it can also be used to switch to someone who's likely to be a good Dwarf Therapist
Breaking up parties involving stressed dorfs is probably not a good idea.

If you do run out of haulers due to madness, new immigrants ought to appear to replace them, unless your fortress is full of children that keep the population above the immigration cap (and if that's the case, new haulers will mature within 12 years).