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[Armok]

Trees don't have minds in *this* world, much implies they are supposed to have some kind of sentient spirit in the DF one. And I've never understood why cannibalism would be inherently wrong, it's just some random taboo western civilization have, similar to how some religions refuse to eat pork or that whole cow thing down in India.

[CyberCube]

Regardless of the moral issues with cannibalism, wouldn't it be more, I dunno, natural of them to leave the body where it is so that it decays and nourishes the soil? It just seems more logical to me, especially since outside of war, elves only eat berries.

My current region sort of takes this story and reverses it; I'm currently getting my dwarves to go to war with the elves because the humans (who I guess represent the animalmen) were nearly driven to extinction as the elves slowly conquered the world, brutally slaughtering civilians and leaving only orphans behind. The elves attempt this in every other world I've generated, but this is the first time I've seen them succeed, and it's pretty frightening. I don't really see how they're the good guys.

Oh, and I don't usually do any of the stuff the dwarves do in this story either. I actually use wood as little as possible (wish we could make beds out of something else), and this is my first time going to war with someone other than the goblins and kobolds. I did try to attack a caravan once before, but it was because I really, really needed supplies. And that plan failed. I only killed two guards, my own trader, and two thirds of a horse, and then I ran out of ballista arrows. I'll admit I've done a lot of evil stuff in Adventurer mode, but that's slightly different.

[Willfor]

Personally, while on one level I approve of a story which gives the perspective of the oft-hated elves, the idea that the average Dwarf Fortress player is evil...I don't buy it.

You should probably read the forums a little more then. I realise they (we) are not the entire population of DF players, but you will find the majority of outspoken opinions to reflect a sense of... well, evil. And since Toady reads the forum, that is likely the general impression that is made. It really doesn't matter what the average player says if what is popularly said here is the only thing taken into account.

[SirHoneyBadger]

As a mental exercise: Prove to my satisfaction that trees don't/can't think, don't have minds/spirits, and don't feel emotion and/or pain.

Excellent story by the way, ThreeToe. Thanks! You've got a lot of talent.

[Servant Corps]

As a mental exercise: Prove to my satisfaction that trees don't/can't think, don't have minds/spirits, and don't feel emotion and/or pain.

Servant: Hey, Undead Tree!

Tree: Yes?

Servant: Can you think?

Tree: No.

Servant: Do you have a soul?

Tree: No.

Servant: Can you feel emotion? Can you feel pain?

Tree: Nope. Wish I could though. I heard it's pretty nice.

Servant: There you go.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Undead trees are notorious liars. That proves nothing.

[Demonic Gophers]

Also, there have been multiple threads arguing about the possibility of any undead having souls and emotions and such.  So even if we could trust that one, it might not reflect the nature of living trees.

[SirHoneyBadger]

I've often imagined/speculated that the structure of a tree (a deciduous tree, anyway) isn't entirely unlike the structure of a human nervous-system, minus the surrounding flesh, ofcourse.

[CobaltKobold]

It's more like the circulatory. AFAIK there's nothing resembling a nervous system in there.

This uses the rather shady "no-see-um" inference, though, so is hardly 'proof'.

If a tree falls in the forest, and nobody is around, is there a logical contradiction?

Any proof of trees not ha'ing spirits is likely to do the same for other organisms at the same time.

It just occurred to me that undead trees nonetheless grow in DF from (seeds/spores). I can't think of an undead elsewhere that has a complete, separate, equal lifecycle compared to its live brethren. One wonders just how this is working, as (presumably) the normal, live-tree-growing systemic processes are not occurring...

[SirHoneyBadger]

You're right about it's function being more like a circulatory system, but what I meant was that the form, to me, looks a bit like bundles of nerves. Or, rather, how I imagine the vegetable versions to be.

[Eagleon]

Think of how any little force moves and twists a tree. The wind, animals, a dog peeing at the roots, an elk rubbing against the bark, a worm gnawing at a taproot. All those bends and twists and chemical shifts make an impression on a cellular level, changing the way the tree grows. The tree adapts and shifts around the faults but never completely erases them. It's really like a giant recording device that no one could possibly begin to decipher without magic or crazy technology. I think of the elf veneration of trees more as a veneration of history, although later when they start creating treants, they could look at them with a paternal light.

[Kiri]

Personally, while on one level I approve of a story which gives the perspective of the oft-hated elves, the idea that the average Dwarf Fortress player is evil...I don't buy it.

You should probably read the forums a little more then. I realise they (we) are not the entire population of DF players, but you will find the majority of outspoken opinions to reflect a sense of... well, evil. And since Toady reads the forum, that is likely the general impression that is made. It really doesn't matter what the average player says if what is popularly said here is the only thing taken into account.

I have posted very little in my time here in the forum but, I do a lot of reading. I believe that yes, as a general census Dwarf Mode players are inherently evil o.o   Example: The various "pet disposal system"'s I've seen created over the years >_>  Do I need to go on?

[SirHoneyBadger]

I don't know that "DF players have distilled evil running through their naughty, naughty veins" is the whole story, though.

Psychotically compelled, sure, but as much as we may loathe a serial killer-and rightfully so-the fact remains that if you're killing and stuffing your relatives because your dog told you to-and he told you in a voice so great and terrible that you just could not deny it-you perhaps might have something *slightly* more wrong with you than you're really qualified to fix, yourself?

Evil's a matter of choice, in my opinion, while wrongness, even great wrongness...just sort of happens, whether you'd like it to or not.

And that's one of the great services to Humanity that DF provides--kill a virtual kitten, save a real cat, or grandma for that matter.

Then again, I'm an avid DF player, so who knows what kind of monstrous acts I'm up to, even as we speak?

muah ha...

...ahahah...

...ahahahahahahAHAHAAA!!! ***THUNDERCLAP***

[CobaltKobold]

You're right about it's function being more like a circulatory system, but what I meant was that the form, to me, looks a bit like bundles of nerves. Or, rather, how I imagine the vegetable versions to be.

I'm not terribly informed about plants that -do- react to their surroundings in minor ways (flytraps being probably the commonest-known, others that curl leaves together when touched classroom examples...)- might want to look at those.

[RAM]

I am not aware of any definitive proof regarding the existence of spiritual aspects, so to say that trees don't have souls seems silly to me. As for their having minds, I have the impression that vines achieve some quite impressive feats of navigation and reactiveness to say confidently that they have no elements of complex decisiveness. Given that they are, clearly, biologically alive, and yet have a mechanism for that life that is almost completely alien to our own, and that their doesn't even seem to be an accepted definition for, hmm, lets say 'spiritual' life, I really don't see any way to form an argument for or to claim to be qualified to know the nature and extent of their "non-living" state...

Great story by the way! I noticed the presence of telepathy, does this finally explain reproduction in D.F.? can tigers cause pregnancy in elves? What about elves to tigers? Is reproductive telepathy subconscious? While conscious telepathy is very rare? Do partners need to perform rituals to activate reproductive telepathy? Can this be developed into conscious telepathy through training, practice, and/or ritual? Can conscious telepathy be used for reproduction? Can this be addictive? Will it cause excessive 'on break' time? Will it cause partners to go insane due to events that occur to their partner without needing to be sad? Am I enjoying a hearty Evil laugh while typing this? Will we be able to select telepathic elements on embark? Can it be trained? Will some animals be more attuned to it than others? Can it be used as a weapon? Will there be telepathic artefacts that directly affect nearby minds? Will there be telepathic residues left on the remains of living creatures? Will goblins experience the last moments of their former friends as they are pierced by the bones of said friends? Will we be able to build foul alters from the skulls of our enemies whose foul emanations will cause random insanity in passer-bys? Can we use telepathy to gain advanced warning of visitors? Will Megabeasts be able to telepathically terrify everyone in range when they first enter the map?