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Author Topic: Fleet Admiral - cancelled due to lack of interest  (Read 4508 times)

Parsely

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Re: Interest check/development: You Are An Admiral
« Reply #45 on: May 18, 2015, 10:12:47 pm »

It's not about absorbing energy, it's about reflecting it.

A perfect finish in an atmospheric ship would be nigh impossible, and certain areas you certainly can't manage it,

and most of the time, visible light isn't going to be what you're trying to reflect anyway.
That's precisely what I'm talking about. A perfect, non-dielectric mirror will only reflect up to 80& of the energy of a laser, and the rest gets absorbed by the mirror, burning the reflective surface away and rendering the material useless as armor.

Is that terribly relevant? I thought we were talking about space ships.

Well that only helps to prove my point that mirrors as armor are useless. If these lasers do in fact fire gamma or x-rays instead of IR or visible EMR then they won't even interact with a mirror, they'll go right through it.
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Development/musings/potential OOC: Fleet Admiral
« Reply #46 on: May 18, 2015, 10:31:57 pm »

A ship that could go into atmosphere, Gunin. But in space, that's solved pretty easily by any number of means, from heat sinks to launching glitter designed to reflect lasers.

Yeah, mirrors are useless in the same way rolled steel is useless against tank shells. That's very vague. How much energy in the laser? What's the material behind the mirror? What's the mirror made of? Can the mirror change frequencies or self-modulate as it's burned away with a substance that reacts to light to become reflective to it? What's the laser's frequency? Has the laser's powered been reduced beforehand by a number of possible means? As permanent, forever armor that never needs to be replaced, and fulfills all the needs you have of protecting against lasers, sure, mirrors don't work. But they reflect 80% of the energy of a single shot. And we're talking about shots that could cripple a ship in one blow if they get it off. It's like ERA on tanks. Is it perfect, no. Is it one-use only, yes. Does it help? You're damn right it does. And polishing your ship isn't all that hard to do, and might save your life.
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Ross Vernal

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Re: Development/musings/potential OOC: Fleet Admiral
« Reply #47 on: May 18, 2015, 10:49:49 pm »

I'm not sure if this helps, but they had bomb pumped laser warheads in the universe. Armor by necessity has to be able to do something about it.

...They also had Nano smart paint, although that wasn't really explored.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2015, 10:53:30 pm by Ross Vernal »
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escaped lurker

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Re: Development/musings/potential OOC: Fleet Admiral
« Reply #48 on: May 18, 2015, 10:51:21 pm »

Well, no - Gunnin raises a very good point. About mirrors, that is. Which, while I did not expand on the basic idea, I never thought of. For all that is worth ;p

That the thin metal covering behind a piece of glass, is not "good" enough to divert lasers, is kinda obvious. But, an armour made of some artificial material, which has "reflective" abilities? That does not sound that far-fetched, as that I could not believe in its possible existence. Either way, such an armour would obviously not be the bane of all lasers, lest half of the military would use it anyway, rendering lasers largely useless. No, its more along the lines of diverging some lesser shots, limiting damage of bigger ones, heck, maybe even highly restricted and tied by the angle said lasers come in. Well, at least what I would envision about this topic.
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Development/musings/potential OOC: Fleet Admiral
« Reply #49 on: May 18, 2015, 11:21:40 pm »

Question, Ross.

Would a massive projectile weapon that accelerated a twenty ton projectile to 0.9c or so work? Carrying an antimatter payload? I had been thinking something that basically shifted dimensions to bypass the grav wedge, but trying to do it so precisely made it incredibly hard to aim very well, but the expense involved would probably mean noone would do it anyway.

Also, curious what you think of the non Grav ships. Probably don't want to deal with the difficulties involved in trying to work them into the system and not really knowing how they would interact, I'm guessing.

Don't forget, Lurker, that lasers get screwed up by dust and shit in the way. Anything that interferes with focusing. What abut a type of ablative armor that basically threw a shitton of shiny space dust into the way of the laser
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Ross Vernal

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Re: Development/musings/potential OOC: Fleet Admiral
« Reply #50 on: May 18, 2015, 11:40:57 pm »

If weapon size and cost went up by 1+modifier percentage, that might help a bit.

Particle Beam 2:  12/ 1 / 25 / 10% per "size"
- 14/2/28.5
- 16.5/3/32
- 18.5/4/35.5

Laser 3: 6/1/30/10
- 7.5/2/34
- 10/3/38
- 11/4/42

Stinger Missile 1: 18/2/50/3%
- 19.5/3/52.5
- 21/4/55
- 23/5/58

Stinger 4: 12/2/51/3%
- 13/3/53.5
- 15/4/56
- 16/5/59

I think I like that a bit better. Of course, Stinger 4 will likely be 54bc as opposed to 51, but still.
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Ross Vernal

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Re: Development/musings/potential OOC: Fleet Admiral
« Reply #51 on: May 18, 2015, 11:59:32 pm »

On the small scale, there are straight up wedge missiles. They're more used for small craft like pinnaces and assault shuttles, but the bigger ones are antimissile missiles. I'm not entirely sure why they weren't used against bigger ships unless it was handwaved as "wedge interference, missile loses"
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Parsely

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Re: Development/musings/potential OOC: Fleet Admiral
« Reply #52 on: May 19, 2015, 12:42:13 am »

A ship that could go into atmosphere, Gunin. But in space, that's solved pretty easily by any number of means, from heat sinks to launching glitter designed to reflect lasers.

Yeah, mirrors are useless in the same way rolled steel is useless against tank shells. That's very vague.

How much energy in the laser?

What's the material behind the mirror?

What's the mirror made of?

Can the mirror change frequencies or self-modulate as it's burned away with a substance that reacts to light to become reflective to it?

What's the laser's frequency?

Has the laser's powered been reduced beforehand by a number of possible means?

As permanent, forever armor that never needs to be replaced, and fulfills all the needs you have of protecting against lasers, sure, mirrors don't work. But they reflect 80% of the energy of a single shot. And we're talking about shots that could cripple a ship in one blow if they get it off. It's like ERA on tanks. Is it perfect, no. Is it one-use only, yes. Does it help? You're damn right it does. And polishing your ship isn't all that hard to do, and might save your life.
Reflective dust is a laughable countermeasure against lasers. A laser beam is going to be millimeters to centimeters wide when it strikes it's target. That means it's only going to collide with a handful of material at most, if you could even find an efficient way of dispersing it. You would have to either stay still or move in a straight line without changing your velocity in order to keep the cloud around your ship, and that makes you a sitting duck. Speed and agility would be more effective at saving you from being shot, and this defense would make doing that impossible.

You'd be better off using steel.

If it's a ship-killer? The tactical starship lasers from Attack Vector are more than 2 gigawatts, so the assumption I'd make is that they'd be somewhere in that range, but it could vary heavily based on the kind of armor ships have in this universe. That energy is all focused on an area a few millimeters wide to burn your ship.

Don't know. Something light but dense, so definitely some kind of alloy. Can't go too far wrong with titanium.

Probably silver, aluminum, or substrates of glass, depending on what wavelength you're looking to reflect. Your bathroom mirror is made of silver covered by glass. The mirror inside of your laser would be a dielectric mirror made of layers of special glass built specially to reflect 99.99% of the light, an efficiency which is possible because you can know exactly what frequency is being bounced off of it.

Visible EMR. Past ultra-violet, radiation starts to stop being reflected because it doesn't interact with the mirror. We have to make this assumption otherwise there's no point in talking about mirrors for armor.

If we're in space, no, probably not. I'm assuming the ship is in effective range (close enough that the spot size is less than a millimeter in diameter.

A proper combative laser, like the one mentioned in the example I cited earlier, will fire a series of pulses microseconds in length, and they will all arrive in the same instant, on a spot less than a millimeter in diameter. The mirror will reflect 80% of the first pulse, scorching it, the rest will continue to burn through and deal damage. The mirror is probably still reflecting some energy but it will be miniscule. 2gw of energy per shot, let's say 50 pulses spaced 10 microseconds apart (that's a total shot duration of 500 microseconds or 0.0005 seconds), which makes it 40mw per pulse. So a mirror that reflects 80% of the first pulse's energy is only going to reflect a total of 32mw of energy. That mirror is almost doing nothing to protect the ship.

Don't forget, Lurker, that lasers get screwed up by dust and shit in the way. Anything that interferes with focusing. What abut a type of ablative armor that basically threw a shitton of shiny space dust into the way of the laser
Ablatives are a way better solution compared to mirrors. The only problem is that it would take up a lot of space. That is, your ship would be quite massive, and thus take more power to accelerate.

Ross, is there somewhere where you're keeping a comprehensive manual for this game? I want to be able to see all the charts and numbers and lore you've got in one place.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2015, 12:45:54 am by GUNINANRUNIN »
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Ross Vernal

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Re: Development/musings/potential OOC: Fleet Admiral
« Reply #53 on: May 19, 2015, 01:05:02 am »

I would also like to have numbers and lore and such. Basically, I was taking numbers from the GalCiv2 wiki as a starting point, borrowing from the HH universe for the Handwavium Generators to enable space being big, and probably a few other things I don't recall as minor influences. (I was tempted to have two galaxies, though.)

As far as the universe and such, I am open to what you guys like. I don't want to just wing this, hence development. Gotta make sure the exceptions to reality are consistent.

I should have littered this with links.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~tpope/misc/harrington/nefarious-list/0COVER.HTM
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/series/Harrington

http://galciv.wikia.com/wiki/Galactic_Civilizations_Wik
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Development/musings/potential OOC: Fleet Admiral
« Reply #54 on: May 20, 2015, 06:51:33 pm »

I have many and varied ideas Ross.

I do like the idea of a wormhole race(possibly using Aurora-ish stuff where it only works at Lagrange points), but since that would entail a bunch of whatevers, I'm gonna drop it for now.

I did come up with what I think is a good table for the Space/HP/Cost/Speed. Mostly. Tried to make it balanced for what we're doing, since there's no research to get to certain ship hulls or logistics maximums or the like that GalCiv does. For ships, I went with a multiplier based on their cost, getting slowly less efficient the larger the ship. Efficiency versus Efficacy; it takes longer negate a larger ship's firepower than an equivalent cost of small ships, as that Space helps armor and defenses too...

You were saying you were gonna multiply Weapons damage by 40. Will there be possibilities of only partial hits, or even half-size or in between size weapons, then? Otherwise, the difference between a Fighter, a Freighter, and a Light Cargo Ship in terms of durability is just decoration.

Actually, I may be making adjustments, looking at the original table again, especially if we're gonna have extra powerful weapons. Might tip the tables towards offense too much otherwise...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm gonna try and look at weapons or something next.

And lore. Can't forget that lore. Let's say...four major starfaring races, with others species of intelligent life existing, but for one reason or another, haven't reached the stars, whether by killing themselves off, having a planet that you can't really get into space very easily without some really fancy tech that you might not be able to research into without reaching space, simply being too early into development to have reached that point, or being killed off by factors that aren't each other. Or maybe they simply don't have interest in space. Some of these, of course, will be minor citizens in one nation or another, but they won't have the sheer numbers the races that propagated themselves on multiple planets have. One race is probably gonna end up being humans, hopefully we can avoid the other races being Hat-People by leaving which nations are which race til after the nations are made. Maybe 7 'major' powers, myriad lesser ones, various fleet, combat, and strategic doctrines based on available technology, resources, and the psychology of the nation/race in question. Either several 'Federation' nations or none(in terms of the major powers, at least) I think would be best. It would just be odd if only one nation contained multiple races, and replicating Star Trek isn't the point. I'd like to break from Honorverse as much as possible, in tech to some extent(as long as we still keep our own physics consistent) and lore alike. Be unique.


Spoiler: Gunin (click to show/hide)

« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 09:09:00 pm by Rolepgeek »
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Development/musings/potential OOC: Fleet Admiral
« Reply #55 on: May 20, 2015, 09:20:51 pm »

Oh yeah, I nearly forgot. I think I came up with a decent way to do light and heavy ship types. For most ship types, that is, Destroyers(which I would like renamed to Frigates, with the Heavy versions being Destroyers and the Light version being Corvettes), Light Cruisers, Heavy Cruisers(we may run into difficulties here), Battlecruisers, Dreadnoughts, and Super Dreadnoughts, it's the same set of multipliers depending on whether it's Light or Heavy.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Kinda boring modifiers, but hey, that's balance for ya. And yes, this does mean a Light Light Cruiser is nearly as your typical Frigate(aka Destroyer). Rounding, by the way, would work off of how you rounded the cost*, but would otherwise be more or less how you'd expect, preferably rounding to an interval of five. Less sure about speed; 10% seems about right but in the larger classes it can throw it off. I'm not certain.
Names I've worked out so far for various Ship Types:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
For Fighters(aka LACs), it's slightly different, mostly by necessity because of the numbers we're working with. Since there can be huge variety in roles, I'm not really going to try and assign special attributes or do more than a basic Light and Heavy, it just won't use the typical multipliers.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Cargo ships, on the other hand (Fast Courier has no variants; it's already specialized), will usually either want more Speed, to get past blockades, or more Health, to survive pirate raids and the like; this will usually go alongside a much more minor speed increase. Like Fighters, the costs only go up, not down; Fighter and cargo ships are both cheap enough as it is! Some few would rather just make an absolutely massive ship, but that comes with the appropriate price tag...these I'm less sure about by far. *shrug*
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Finally, Carriers. So many different sizes, so there's a Super-Light, a Light, a Heavy, and a Super-Heavy.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
* - if you end up rounding the cost up and it wasn't a mere 0.5 or 0.05 away or the like, then you round up stats when it's not instantly clear(from a balance perspective, not from mathematical)

EDIT: Fixed the tables.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 11:20:01 pm by Rolepgeek »
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Ross Vernal

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Re: Development/musings/potential OOC: Fleet Admiral
« Reply #56 on: May 22, 2015, 06:03:40 pm »

Quote
you were saying you were gonna multiply Weapons damage by 40.

10. Not 40. The destroyer idea had a dreadnought sized energy weapon added to it that made it have 40 energy as opposed to the stock weapons of 10.

Quote
Will there be possibilities of only partial hits


Yes.



Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Thumbs up.

Quote
And lore. Can't forget that lore. Let's say...four major starfaring races, with others species of intelligent life existing, but for one reason or another, haven't reached the stars, whether by killing themselves off, having a planet that you can't really get into space very easily without some really fancy tech that you might not be able to research into without reaching space, simply being too early into development to have reached that point, or being killed off by factors that aren't each other. Or maybe they simply don't have interest in space. Some of these, of course, will be minor citizens in one nation or another, but they won't have the sheer numbers the races that propagated themselves on multiple planets have. One race is probably gonna end up being humans, hopefully we can avoid the other races being Hat-People by leaving which nations are which race til after the nations are made. Maybe 7 'major' powers, myriad lesser ones, various fleet, combat, and strategic doctrines based on available technology, resources, and the psychology of the nation/race in question. Either several 'Federation' nations or none(in terms of the major powers, at least) I think would be best. It would just be odd if only one nation contained multiple races, and replicating Star Trek isn't the point. I'd like to break from Honorverse as much as possible, in tech to some extent(as long as we still keep our own physics consistent) and lore alike. Be unique.

Let me look up some of my ideas, we'll see if y'all like them.
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Ross Vernal

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Re: Development/musings/potential OOC: Fleet Admiral
« Reply #57 on: May 22, 2015, 06:10:59 pm »

Second set of numbers and names work, and adds a lot of variety. Should I assume the Q comes with appropriately sized weapon loadouts? XD
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Ross Vernal

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Re: Development/musings/potential OOC: Fleet Admiral
« Reply #58 on: May 24, 2015, 12:42:32 pm »

From previous thread:

Terran Alliance is big on missiles. Big ships (they get "ships of the wall" or "capital" ships cheaper), big industry, strong core system. Home system has the Grand Fleet, but it's about 20 years out of date.


League is also missile-happy, but they have better energy weapons. They get production perks to non-capital ships, and have a special "Armed Merchie" class. Weak systems, but they have ships everywhere.

You know the Kai. No home system, but a few dozen seedships. Energy weapons, more expensive tech, slow startup. Body Kai are part of both. But really: heavy units, great tech, etc.

Merope are basically alien bee eater birds. They have great units when working in groups, but solo they're not good. They  hit HARD. They have very good tech, but their economy is wrecked (and fleet gone) from the Suncrusher Incident. Special units are fixed position, but great - sunbeams, planet-crackers, etc.

Synthetics are a robotic caste and merit based society. The majority are non sentient machines. The rest are sentient and reside in synthetic bodies. Death doesn't bother them aside from the loss of invaluable material. Making the sentient and sapient units are EXPENSIVE, but are undeniably the best. They have faster ships due to their mechanical bodies being able to stand more force.

What do you guys think?
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Development/musings/potential OOC: Fleet Admiral
« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2015, 01:12:41 pm »

PTW
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.
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