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[Sappho]

I've been getting really close to a gentleman friend of mine. He's a wonderful person with a really big heart. He's very kind and caring. He's very handsome and charming. But he's an extreme black and white thinker, and it's becoming a problem.

He sees everything in terms of extremes. Everything is "all or nothing." If he has an opinion, it's not an opinion, it's just a fact. Anyone who disagrees with him is wrong. He really believes that he always knows all the answers, always knows what's best not only for himself, but for everyone else. He doesn't see opinions, he sees "facts."

He thinks you can't succeed to any degree, at anything, unless you throw yourself into it 100%. He overworks himself constantly, unwilling to accept anything less than perfection - and he doesn't accept anything less than perfection in other people, either.

When I disagree with him about something, he tells me that there is something wrong with me, that it's something psychological that I need to work on and fix in myself. If I tell him it's not that simple, he immediately accuses me of "playing the victim" - and he has zero tolerance for people who think of themselves as "victims" - which to him just means people who claim not to be in 100% control of every detail of their lives.

I know that from this, it must sound strange that I say he's a great guy. But it's true. Everyone loves him. He is incredibly devoted, caring, generous, honest, and loyal. It's only recently that I've started to see just how black/white his thinking is. Here are some things I often hear him say:

"You need to..."
"It's all or nothing."
"You can't be weak. You have to be tough. You have to go all in or you'll never accomplish anything."
"The problem with people/him/her/you is..."
"You're missing out on some very important things by not recognizing the genius of (film/music/tv series/etc.)."
"It's a shame you don't see the truth (ie why he's right). Maybe someday you can overcome this."
"It doesn't work that way."
"That's just the way I am. I'm not going to / I can't change it."
"There are two kinds of people."
"There are good people and bad people."
"There are people who get it, and people who don't get it."
"There are people who go all in, and people who fail."

You get the idea.

On the other hand, there have been several times in the past where we have disagreed on something, and I have managed to get him to really listen to me. And when he decides to listen, he really listens. He is truly very compassionate, and when he makes the decision to empathize with someone and consider possibilities he didn't know about before, he goes all in, just like with everything else. He *is* willing to admit when he was wrong about something, as long as you can explain to him logically the reasons why.

For this reason, I'm not giving up hope. I think it may still be possible to get him to listen to the reasons why black/white thinking is bad/unhealthy/harmful. And if I can do that, he will surely work hard at changing this. But it will have to be done very carefully.

Does anyone have any experience with this? Can anyone offer any advice on doing this without just setting him off or getting him to label me a "bad" person?

One more thing that might be relevant, I'm autistic, and after some discussion, he and I have agreed that he is slightly autistic as well, though without sensory issues (we agreed on the expression "he has a streak of autism"). That combined with certain aspects of his childhood and younger life is probably the reason he developed this extreme type of thinking as a defense mechanism. I'm quite sure he is *not* borderline or narcissistic. He is not a "toxic" person by any stretch.

If anyone has no idea what the hell I'm talking about, check out these two links for some basic info:
http://www.theemotionmachine.com/the-problem-with-black-and-white-thinking
http://www.slowdownfast.com/get-rid-of-black-and-white-thinking-once-and-for-all/

[NullForceOmega]

Sappho, I certainly respect that you feel strongly about this and want to help someone you enjoy being around, but you have no right to dictate to someone else how they should view the world or interact with it.  I know that this is in no way helpful to you, but you cannot change him unless he wants to change, so either confront him and the possibility of a flat-out rejection of your viewpoint, or accept his shortcomings.  I am also what you would probably refer to as a black and white thinker, so I can say from my own experience that he is not likely to be open to your POV on this, and it will probably make him VERY angry.

[~Neri]

Sounds like my dad. Absurdly black and white in all the wrong ways. The fucking douchebag. Was completely absent throughout my childhood. Never cared when I did something to impress him. Everything always wasn't good enough. Always has to be right. Any time he's wrong he's right. He was a piece of shit in terms of family. believing throwing money at problems fixes them. Believing buying relationships is a thing. Never fucking cared. Just wanted a drone for his image.

And the thing is, nobody sees this side of him until they try interacting with him past a certain point. He's a shallow empty shell of a man. He's charismatic sure, enough to seem like a decent person to most of the people he acts with, but completely shit inside. Hell, he had my mom fooled for 15ish years because he always avoided talking about that stuff, just wanted a drone for his image. She caught on during the last five years of their marriage and a divorce soon followed. I don't talk to the fucker.

This person is most likely not by dad judging by how you're in a completely different country. All I can advise is be super super super careful. Don't waste a considerable fraction of your life with a douche like my mother did.

[Sappho]

Sappho, I certainly respect that you feel strongly about this and want to help someone you enjoy being around, but you have no right to dictate to someone else how they should view the world or interact with it.  I know that this is in no way helpful to you, but you cannot change him unless he wants to change, so either confront him and the possibility of a flat-out rejection of your viewpoint, or accept his shortcomings.  I am also what you would probably refer to as a black and white thinker, so I can say from my own experience that he is not likely to be open to your POV on this, and it will probably make him VERY angry.

I'm not trying to dictate anything. I'm only hoping that I can get him to see a new perspective in order to empathize with me better, so that we can continue to build our relationship. If he insists on seeing everything as "I'm right, anything even slightly different from my opinion is WRONG," then there is nowhere further for us to go. I'm a very open-minded person and I always consider his viewpoint when he disagrees with me on something (and often adjust my own viewpoint as a result), but he usually doesn't want to do the same.

The word "dictate" is not the right word. I'm going to ASK. I'm going to TRY. These are not black/white concepts, so if you are truly a black/white thinker, it's possible you will not understand the nuances in this situation. And that's the problem: as much as he's a caring, kind, compassionate person, as long as he is unable to see nuances in various situations, he will never have a successful relationship. I want to try to find a way to open his mind a little and help him bend a bit, not only for my own sake, but for his. For *ours*.

I know there is a good chance I will fail, in which case all I can do is walk away and leave him to his extremes. But I am going to try. It would break my heart to lose him.

I tried to bring up this topic during a conversation today, and he mostly just laughed at me. He was looking at me like "you poor sad little person, you really don't understand anything, do you? After all, you can't even see how clearly I am RIGHT about everything..." It was clear that he didn't understand what I was trying to explain to him - but when I tried to tell him he didn't understand, he declared quite confidently that he DOES understand (he is always sure that he does) and he wouldn't listen to anything more.

I don't expect him to get angry - not him, with his personality. I do expect him to refuse to consider what I'm saying. All I'm asking for here is whether anyone has ever had any success in helping a black/white thinker to see things in a more nuanced way without it having to be a conflict.

Sounds like my dad. Absurdly black and white in all the wrong ways. The fucking douchebag. Was completely absent throughout my childhood. Never cared when I did something to impress him. Everything always wasn't good enough. Always has to be right. Any time he's wrong he's right. He was a piece of shit in terms of family. believing throwing money at problems fixes them. Believing buying relationships is a thing. Never fucking cared. Just wanted a drone for his image.

And the thing is, nobody sees this side of him until they try interacting with him past a certain point. He's a shallow empty shell of a man. He's charismatic sure, enough to seem like a decent person to most of the people he acts with, but completely shit inside. Hell, he had my mom fooled for 15ish years because he always avoided talking about that stuff, just wanted a drone for his image. She caught on during the last five years of their marriage and a divorce soon followed. I don't talk to the fucker.

This person is most likely not by dad judging by how you're in a completely different country. All I can advise is be super super super careful. Don't waste a considerable fraction of your life with a douche like my mother did.

Sorry to hear about that. I have similar issues with my mother. But in this case, the situation is different. Black/white thinking is common this type of toxic person, but this guy is not toxic. He is caring, compassionate, and very well-intentioned. He's just mistaking stubbornness and closed-mindedness for strength. It's a defense mechanism. He would never do anything to hurt anyone, but no one can get close to him as long as he refuses to bend on anything.

[~Neri]

Black/white thinking is common this type of toxic person, but this guy is not toxic. He is caring, compassionate, and very well-intentioned. He's just mistaking stubbornness and closed-mindedness for strength. It's a defense mechanism. He would never do anything to hurt anyone, but no one can get close to him as long as he refuses to bend on anything.

And my father appears caring, compassionate, and well intentioned Until you get to know him.

[Sappho]

Black/white thinking is common this type of toxic person, but this guy is not toxic. He is caring, compassionate, and very well-intentioned. He's just mistaking stubbornness and closed-mindedness for strength. It's a defense mechanism. He would never do anything to hurt anyone, but no one can get close to him as long as he refuses to bend on anything.

And my father appears caring, compassionate, and well intentioned Until you get to know him.

I know this guy *very* well. I understand your intentions in saying that, and appreciate your perspective (as I said, I have similar issues with my mother, so I really do know what you're talking about), but in this case, the source (and the expression) of the black/white thinking are different. I promise that I know this guy well enough to be past the barrier where you only see their public/external face. I know his dark side - and he is *still* caring, compassionate, and well-intentioned. Just misguided.

[~Neri]

My mother was married to my father for 20 years, She didn't notice his horribleawful until five years ago. He kept it hidden very well. I noticed it fairly early in my life tho.

Be sure that's actually his darkside and not a decoy.

[NullForceOmega]

The above 'dictate' has far more to do with how his perception may be colored by even broaching the subject.  To be clear, while I don't *always* understand every nuance, I am very good at analysis, so though it does happen that I miss things it is fairly rare.  The largest danger there is whether or not the black and white thinker (like myself) decides if the information is relevant or not.  If he is anything at all like me (and your description of him has many parallels, but that should not be a deciding factor) then he probably has a tendency to approach things from a relevant/irrelevant perspective, so it may well be that he does grasp the nuances, and chooses to discard them as useless.  Black and White thinking is a response to environment, usually a defense mechanism.  In my case it is purely survival based, and I KNOW that it makes my marriage harder than it has to be, but changing it is NOT possible (for more reasons than can even be explored).  In you friends case it may be due to his possible autism, and may actually be necessary for him to interact with the world AT ALL.  Just food for thought.

[Sappho]

My mother was married to my father for 20 years, She didn't notice his horribleawful until five years ago. He kept it hidden very well. I noticed it fairly early in my life tho.

Be sure that's actually his darkside and not a decoy.

Again, I appreciate your perspective and your intentions, and I promise to keep it in mind. But right now, what I'm hoping for is some advice on how to approach discussing this topic with him in a way that he might actually listen to.

I'm considering sending him a link to an article on the topic and asking him to just read it and keep it in mind, and say I'd prefer not to discuss it for a while. (I won't see him in person for another few weeks and we're just chatting online via skype - I'd prefer to do this face to face.) In writing, I can make it clear that I'm not trying to criticize him or start an argument (without him being able to interrupt me), I just want him to *consider* an alternative point of view. If I challenge him to do it (reverse psychology works great on him, as he's extremely competitive - "I bet you're not able to do it" has worked well in the past), he may really do so. This has worked on other topics. I give him something to read, then after a few days we talk about it and he really listens to me and eventually concedes that he was ignorant about the subject matter and he now acknowledges that I was right all along. (An example are my sensory overload meltdowns. At first he thought it was a sign that I was just "weak" - after giving him some stuff to read and explaining things to him, he understood that it was not a question of weakness, and we talked it out and he is now very understanding and even super helpful when I'm in an overload situation.)

This will be trickier, though, because it's about *him* this time. Maybe I should wait until closer to the time when I'll see him face to face, so it doesn't stew for too long... Or wait until I'm actually back where he is completely. Thoughts?

[NullForceOmega]

I read through those articles, and was frankly insulted by their content.  That doesn't mean that he will be, but to my perspective at least they were drivel, with a laughable perspective when measured against my personal experiences.  That is one of the problems you will face in trying to get him to adjust to a different viewpoint, it is probable that he will attempt to measure everything against his own supposed knowledge and experience, and he is not likely to be amenable to a fundamental shift in his thinking.  I'm not trying to be discouraging at all, but if you are going through with this it will be a battle every step of the way, and if I were him I would reject your view altogether, but I am not him, and you may have some success.

[Sappho]

I understand what you're saying and I know this is a possibility. For sure, I wouldn't try to change him completely. I know that it's part of his personality to go "all in" and be somewhat extreme in many ways. But I also know that he has shown an ability to empathize with new perspectives and admit previous errors on his part, which is why I'm going to try. My basic hope is that he will be just a little more open-minded with me, particularly when it comes to opinions - and to make a small adjustment from "if you disagree with me you are WRONG/BROKEN and need to be fixed" to something more like simply "I disagree with you." Just that would be enough for me to be happy with the situation. I don't need him to see all of life in shades of gray - I just need to know that we can compromise on key issues and not fall apart over small disagreements of opinion.

The link I'm currently considering is this one (not listed above): http://blog.palmpartners.com/dangers-black-white-thinking/

It's focused around addiction, but the majority of the information is universal and applicable to life/relationships in general.

[NullForceOmega]

I do understand that the main thrust here is an attempt to moderate the more confrontational portions of his interaction, and I agree that his current analysis method is untenable.  Your ultimate goal here appears to be a desire for him to cease particular disruptive and socially destructive behaviors, specifically his dismissal of outside viewpoints, and it is possible to make headway there.  It would probably be best to approach him on that line of thought instead of attacking his worldview directly.  I have to say, honestly, the kind of fuzzy thinking promoted by that article is just as destructive and limiting, as well as having several massive gaps in logic and reasoning, it may be even more offensive than the previous articles.

[Sappho]

Thanks for your feedback. Actually, it's very helpful for another black/white thinker to look at my strategy and offer feedback on it before I approach him directly.

I think you understand my intentions pretty well. I'm not trying to fundamentally change him or his worldview, I just want him to find a way of interacting with me (and others) that isn't so destructive and limiting. I do think this is possible, if I can find the right way of doing it.

So, accepting that the types of articles I've been looking at are not likely to be effective in reaching him with my intentions, would you expect it to be better to try to communicate first in writing, or to go directly to face-to-face discussion? I'm leaning towards writing (I'd write something of my own rather than using these articles, given your reaction to them - being careful of my wording, making my positive intentions clear) so that he can't interrupt me with dismissive comments. I do know that he will read things if I send them to him and tell him it's important, as we have had this kind of interaction in the past (particularly with my sensory issues).

I'm thinking the focus should be on how particular behaviors impact me in a negative or hurtful way, without being accusatory - and being sure to offer alternatives rather than just criticizing. As I keep saying, he is truly exceptionally compassionate and caring. It pains him to see other people in pain. If I can get him to see that he is hurting me without triggering his defensiveness, I think I can find some success here. I guess the question is when to approach this topic, and whether to do it in writing first.

[NullForceOmega]

That sounds like a good way to start things off, if you can impress upon him the harm his behavior is causing then you might have a pathway to meaningful dialogue.  I'm not sure what method of delivery will be optimum, that depends heavily on his individual prejudices, if he favors the written word then go for correspondence, if he favors speech and action then face to face will have better results.  If you are going to write then focus very heavily on the negative impact his words and actions can have on others, with some actual data to back it up if possible, steer clear of blogs tho', that is the kind of data that is likely to be discarded immediately, if you can get anything from behavioral science or psychology then you can probably keep him focused on what you are saying.  If you end up going the face to face route do everything you can to not make direct emotional appeals, his core logic may work against you there (this is a problem my wife and I have, she is very much an emotional creature and my tendency towards absolutism makes me react very negatively to emotion, again just anecdotal and may not apply here), keep focus on what you perceive as problematic and try to impress that it is an actual imperative NEED for you, be expansive in your explanations if it comes down to that, sometimes having a greater degree of available data can help an absolutist come to terms with a situation.

[Sappho]

Hm... I'll have to consider this carefully. In general, he strongly prefers face-to-face and spoken communication over written. On the other hand, he knows my strong preference for written communication, and he is always willing to read things (at least initially) rather than talk about them so that I can sort out my thought processes and make my message clear and organized. Then we talk about it later, so we both get our preferred type of communication.

If I do it face to face, there's a strong chance that he will interrupt me frequently to tell me I'm wrong. It's also difficult for me to organize my thoughts in a face-to-face conversation (I'm hyperlexic and have trouble processing spoken communication) and it would be much more difficult for me to express what I want to express if I only do it face-to-face.

If I make it very clear to him that what I have to say is important, and that I have planned out how I want to say it, and that I need him to listen without interrupting, and that when I am finished, I will be quiet and give him his turn to say whatever he wants... he will probably listen quietly without interrupting. But then there is still the issue of organizing my thoughts well enough.

He definitely does respond better to data and evidence than to emotional descriptions. On the other hand, I've been reviewing a few of our conversations and discussions, and as long as I explain my position clearly and in a logical way, he does tend to listen even to emotional information - as long as it has a basis in logic.

He has also shown a desire to not be too harsh on other people. He's made it clear that one of his parents was far too hard on him as a child, far too strict and unyielding, and he doesn't want to be that way himself. Whenever he realizes that he may have been too hard and may have hurt someone with his words or actions, it actually keeps him up at night, and at the soonest opportunity, he makes contact to apologize and check that the other person is okay. So in this way, emotional appeals can be effective - if I point out that he is being too hard and it is causing other people pain.