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[Neonivek]

Phantasmal Killer is both will and fortitude a double save. Mostly because it is the earliest instant kill (outside Color spray and sleep in essence)

Wail is Fort as well.

[Sergarr]

Phantasmal Killer is both will and fortitude a double save. Mostly because it is the earliest instant kill (outside Color spray and sleep in essence)

Wail is Fort as well.

Acid Fog is not an instant kill, but it's pretty deadly. And it allows no save at all.

[thegoatgod_pan]

See, I've been hearing people talk about how broken Moon Circle Druids are almost since the day they were introduced, people making a big thing about that self-transformation being OP. It's well on the way to being errata'd, but the thing is... The character can only transform into things they've seen. This drops a lot of the better forms out of the running, unless the DM is a complete doormat who lets the player have a backstory where their 1st level character has survived encountering a Dire Wolf, Giant Spider, &c.

That, and it's OP... at low levels. The cutoff that gets mentioned a lot is ~6th level, because the transformation supposedly doesn't scale very well. The common solution that's usually offered is to set encounter difficulty as if the Druid was 1-2 levels higher for the first couple levels, to help offset the advantage of all that free HP.

It isn't the forms, it is the free hp (unlimited at level 20) in a particularly hp scarse edition

[Jiokuy]

Wow, this thread is unexpectedly vitrolic.

Personally I loved 3/3.5e It is what I was tought to play, and it was fun. (I didn't pay attention to numbers much)

I jumped on the 4e bandwagon, and fell flat on my face. Everything I enjoyed about 3.5e (Dragonborn Lore, gnomes as a race, substantial differences between classes, undead hordes, summoning, shapeshifting) it all seemed to be shafted in favor of making a P&P WoW Clone.

Now IDK they may have fixed some of my gripes. But 3 years ago when I started the RPG club at my college (because I was the only one with experience, and watching noobs try to GM was painful (a lot of GM vs player)) I considered 3.5e, but figured it was too optimization heavy, and I considered 4e, but the classes still felt like a jumbled mush of poop. So in the end I settled on Pathfinder.

Since then, both myself and other have run a few 4e games, and every time by majority request we go back to pathfinder. Ultimatly 4e just isn't as fun, it's a bit like the world where everyone is equal, but everything is a dull grey mess. Only in 4e there are archetypes, so imagine a world with 5 colors, and no shades. That is honestly the best way I can describe my experienc with 4e.

Honestly I like 5e, if WizardsHazbro wern't literally being Satan and giving EA a run for thier money in terms of fucking over the community for profit, I would def run a few games. However several good community websites have been DMCAed, and Wizards revoked the full OGL, thus forcing them to take down legal 3.5e and Pathfinder stuff. Which is honestly a bit of a dick move.

They've just done several things in the name of money that leave a bad taste in my mouth. (they attacked sites and 4-6mo later release subscriber versions of the community sites) Also I cannot forgive how badly they shafted Bard's saving throws, Int and Cha, Really. Do u know how many Int and Cha saves there are in 5e, Not Many!

Pathfinder isn't perfect, but it's fun, and since my games are usually run on the semerter basis, we usually go from level 1-4 is -> 11 tops, and caster's are rarely an issue. I love how they have been giving ability pools to martials. It lets martials have extra options in combat, but it feels different from mages (something 4e fucked up with).

5e is good yeah.

[Orange Wizard]

Wizards revoked the full OGL

lolwut

u srs bruh

[Neonivek]

It is hard, I don't have many good roleplay memories with dungeons and dragons.

My entire experience with them has been people telling me to play one way, and then me finding out that the reality was the exact opposite and being screwed out of a good time.

[Jiokuy]

Wizards revoked the full OGL

lolwut

u srs bruh

They can revoke the OGL for certain sites, it is a part of the OGL. If you infringe on their copyright (incl 5e) they can revoke the entire OGL despire 5e not being covered under the OGL.

[Arcvasti]

I've never actually played 5e, but looking through the sourcebook, it seems pretty fun. Its not 3.5, but I've played 3.5 since I was 6 or 7 and it will always have a special place in my heart.

* Arcvasti rubs hands together

Comparative edition stuff:

AD&D: From what I can tell, a fair amount of this stuff was balanced by eye. Casters are mostly supreme, but have a lot of weird shit in their path[Druids having to defeat higher level druids to get the higher levels, some spells[Especially Wish] having nasty detrimental effects and them gaining levels the slowest[<-I think]]. And then there's the silly tables only the DM gets to look at. And the psionics system. And the bard class. All told, AD&D seems like a real world with numbers and stats slapped with duct tape in weird places.

2e: I've only played it once, but it seems to be AD&D, but more consistent.

3.5e: This is the controversy. I LIKE 3.5e. It is mostly a somewhat robust system for shenanigans.  Honestly, I've rarely had a problem with unbalanced characters, mostly because me/my group is terrible at optimization. I just like being a Sorcerer and blasting shit/turning into a dragon every so often. Mostly that works out fine, since I usually let other people turn into dragons too.

4e: This is the other controversy. It seems a lot more, square, somehow, then 3.5e. Like you chopped all the abilities and stuff into completely equal little squares and put them in neat little rows and columns. Its actually decently fun, but I mostly like the intermeshed triangles and hexagons and circles/monks of 3.5 better then squares.

5e: If 3.5 is a mess of random geometric shapes and 4e is squares, 5e is mainly rectangles interwoven with hexagons. There are still little gaps between shapes where things fall through the rules and classes are segregated by tier, but they're itsy bitsy compared to 3.5e.

also monks can be benders now checkmate eceureuil fifth edition is best edition go home n00bs

[Jiokuy]

Arcvasti, I strongly agree with your comparisons. They are very apt.

[Neonivek]

Ohh and a big change in 5e

Rogues are no longer necessary at all... and THANK GOODNESS! and good riddance.

I know it is rare for most people because one person usually always wants to play the rogue... But I certainly had games where absolutely no one wanted to play that rogue.

Double bonus? The Rogue's sneak attack is never negated! So even when you have one you aren't going to feel like your screwing someone over by having a crypt adventure.

[My Name is Immaterial]

Sneak Attack is also easier to setup; just shoot/stab what the BSF is engaged with.

[Sergarr]

Ohh and a big change in 5e

Rogues are no longer necessary at all... and THANK GOODNESS! and good riddance.

I know it is rare for most people because one person usually always wants to play the rogue... But I certainly had games where absolutely no one wanted to play that rogue.

Double bonus? The Rogue's sneak attack is never negated! So even when you have one you aren't going to feel like your screwing someone over by having a crypt adventure.

Why is Rogue necessary, when Detect Trap is a thing?

[gimli]

II LIKE 3.5e.

..and you are not alone. It's my favourite edition actually, but I haven't tried 5e only 4e, but tbh I don't even plan to try it, since 3.5e is good enough. I don't like 4e. [Side note: ToEE was the first video game to implement the 3.5 edition rule set.]

[Flying Dice]

See, I've been hearing people talk about how broken Moon Circle Druids are almost since the day they were introduced, people making a big thing about that self-transformation being OP. It's well on the way to being errata'd, but the thing is... The character can only transform into things they've seen. This drops a lot of the better forms out of the running, unless the DM is a complete doormat who lets the player have a backstory where their 1st level character has survived encountering a Dire Wolf, Giant Spider, &c.

That, and it's OP... at low levels. The cutoff that gets mentioned a lot is ~6th level, because the transformation supposedly doesn't scale very well. The common solution that's usually offered is to set encounter difficulty as if the Druid was 1-2 levels higher for the first couple levels, to help offset the advantage of all that free HP.

It isn't the forms, it is the free hp (unlimited at level 20) in a particularly hp scarse edition

...which is exactly what I was taking about, while also making the point that in most cases it'll be Brown Bear every time. And, again, you missed the point: it falls off really hard after low levels are past. 11AC, no improvement to the attacks. That's where the bit about forms comes in: the Brown Bear is the only good one that most 1st level characters could reasonably have seen, and everything about it is only good at <~level 8ish; the Dire Wolf gets advantage on attacks and CC, the Giant Spider has a climb speed, Darkvision, and better AC, &c. but most DMs won't let you use them right off the bat. By the time the Druid's seen other useful forms, their own advantages will be less significant.

It's OP, but only at low levels and only if the DM doesn't know how to deal with it. Early on, after their first encounter, clever enemies could engage briefly, force the Druid to transform, then run away and strike an hour or two later. Or bring archers and block the Druid from moving around too much. At high levels it's like trying to play a full-aggro Barbarian with a plain, unenhanced weapon and no class/&c. bonuses to attack or damage: yeah, you've got a big HP pool, but at that point enemies are throwing around save-or-Xes, and anything that tries for a plain direct damage attack is going to laugh at your 11AC.

[DJ]

I don't get all the complaints about splatbooks in 3.5. They have to get DM's approval before they can be used, and the default answer should be no.