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[Flying Dice]

Funny that people forget about it, actually, 3.5e's Knight is pretty much exactly like an MMO tank class, given that they're all about walking about in full plate forcing strong enemies to duel you and weak enemies to run away, gain myriad bonuses against your target, move at full speed in heavy armor, prevent foes from moving past you, and directly absorb damage directed at other party members.

Probably because it's a supplementary-book class that I've literally haven't heard about before that people used very rarely (I've heard about many other supplementary-book classes, but not about this one). I think that's because the concept of MMO tanking proved to be unpopular for TTRPG players.

No, it was because by the standards of 3.5e it was a shit class. All it did was tank, all of its class abilities were oriented around being a tank, &c... and at the end of the day, D&D combat (at least in that edition) was oriented entirely around preventing the enemy from acting by CCing them, surprise-ganking them, or killing them very, very quickly. That's why the traditional tanking roles are filled by classes that tank because they do their big chunks of damage by running up and hitting things really hard and happen to have decent health and/or armor proficiencies.

And, since people apparently missed it, again: the actual term 'tank' is derived from an old MUD that was heavily inspired by D&D, and the concept existed long before MMOs. All MMOs did was make it viable to be a purely defensive tank.

Also, TIL that PHBII is obscure. Which, incidentally, was published in 2006. If you're having trouble remembering, that was back when Everquest was still big, people played Runescape, EVE was fresh, Star Wars Galaxies was still a thing, Guild Wars 1 and WoW were recent news, and D&DO had just launched.

[sambojin]

More free stuff for 5e out in Unearthed Arcana.

Minotaurs, Mariners and Swashbucklers. Swashbuckling, swimming, climbing, too-long-at-sea (horny) goodness. Swashbucklers look great as a rogue path.

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/unearthed-arcana-waterborne-adventures

[Bauglir]

horny

Is that the Swashbucklers, the Minotaurs, or the Swashbuckling Minotaurs?

[Sensei]

horny

Is that the Swashbucklers, the Minotaurs, or the Swashbuckling Minotaurs?

Oh god, not the swashbuckling Minotaurs. Whose freakin' idea was that?

[Hanzoku]

Someone who is nostalgic for Krynn and the seafaring minotaurs there?

[Orange Wizard]

Swashbuckling minotaurs are possibly the most hilarious mental image ever.

[Sensei]

Yeah, I know they're from Dragonlance or whatever, but my first encounter with them was in unearthed arcana or stormwrack or the prestige class compendium or something, and my immediate thought was, god damn that is just stupid get back in your maze.

[sambojin]

Yeah. Since they're all in the one trial supplement, the image of a minotaur with a cutlass in his mouth, diving in to save an overboard damsel (or possibly sea-cow) during a storm, then climbing a cliff with her slung over his shoulder is both too awesome, and too stupid, to not imagine.

Sort of like the Princess Bride, an Errol Flynn movie, and a bowl of magic mushrooms all mixed together.

Mmmmm....... Cow Pirates......

[scriver]

I kind of like it, because the whole Minos - Greek archipelago - ships and piracy trail of thought.

Of course, then I remember it is from Dragonlance, which makes me think I am an idiot.

[sambojin]

Ooh!

Mariner+Wildshape=Hilarity.

Horse-form not climbing walls fast enough for your liking? Bat-shape always a let down in aquatic campaigns? No more.

Be an actual goddamed Drop-bear if you want. Hell, be a Drop-elephant if you think it'll be funnier.

They'll never see it coming.

[thegoatgod_pan]

Minotaurs aside, the fighting style is both awesome and a little too good. It is a flat +1 to ac, same as defensive, but you also get a swimming speed and a climbing speed, which is like 2 feats worth of abilities. I am about to start a naval campaign with some friends and I'll probably add it since fighting types can use a bit of cheap power.

[sambojin]

Just preclude mariner's movement speeds from any form of shape-changing, and it's fine.

I can only assume that's what was intended anyway.

Which is a pity. Because Horse POWER-BOMBS! off walls (or any structure you can climb on) is too awesome to miss out on.

Damn you GW! (or Wizards. Someone. Most of them never really make games with wrestling horsies in them. I have no idea why).

[ShinQuickMan]

 Oops. wrong thread. ignore

[Kruniac]

Everything following 3.5 is not D&D.  It is mass-marketed garbage that attempts to replicate WotC's success with Magic in RPG form.  4 and 5 are soulless cash ins with no respect to the original material and a strong bias towards MMORPG children who have no concept of what the term 'Role-playing' even means.

This.

D&D became streamlined down to attract retard dollars. That's basically all it is now. Sell as many books as possible to people less intelligent than me (or you, or whatever).

2nd Edition was good, but didn't have direct skill rules.

3rd is that nice warm place.

4th is an arcade game for retards.

[Arcvasti]

Spoiler: To avoid derail (click to show/hide)

D&D became streamlined down to attract retard dollars. That's basically all it is now. Sell as many books as possible to people less intelligent than me (or you, or whatever).

.

.

.

Let's just take a minute to think about this. 3.5e has so many goddamn sourcebooks its not even funny.

I'll just name the ones I PERSONALLY own:

Players Handbook

Monster Manual

Dungeon Master's Guide

Players Handbook II

Complete Arcane

Complete Divine

Complete Scoundrel

Stormwrack

Manual of the Planes

Unearthed Arcana

Plus one or two I can't find in a cursory examination.

A preliminary look at the price tags on the sourcebooks reveals I've spent ~300$ on these things. And there's more. LOTS more. If we're ragging on WotC trying to get people's "retard dollars" by selling as many books as possible, 3e is the guilty edition here. Not that 4e didn't have far too many sourcebooks too, but there's quite a bit less of them[If only because no one would buy them]. 5e, at the moment, has THREE [Overpriced, to be fair]sourcebooks. I know which edition *I'D* condemn for trying to get "retard dollars". Especially since half the stuff in the auxiliary 3.5e sourcebooks is broken as fuck if used right. 4e wasn't them trying to make an "arcade game for retards", it was them trying to sweep 3.5 under the rug and build a coherently balanced and consistent game system. 5e is them trying to sweep 4e under the rug and build a coherently balanced and consistent game system while still retaining satisfactory shenanigan potential. I think they did a decent enough job, personally, although I still mostly play 3.5e.

4 and 5 are soulless cash ins with no respect to the original material and a strong bias towards MMORPG children who have no concept of what the term 'Role-playing' even means.

This.

Not that I don't dislike RPG being used for games which involve little actual roleplaying[Looking at you, Elder Scrolls], but this is a highly silly statement. I'm fairly certain that role-playing means "Playing a role". What this has to do with the rules surrounding the areas pure role-playing can't always satisfactorily decide, I have no idea. Whether you have spells per day or daily powers, you can do the same amount of role-playing either way.