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[Skullsploder]

FINALLY!!! Posting to bump this. Caught a pair of ogres. One had killed an FB so my marksdwarves won't shoot him but the other one they are  going to town on. And it works! Mostly!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Issues:
The first dwarf to start firing got in 2 bolts without missing, missed the rest of his quiver. Roughly the same pattern for all dwarves firing from the top.
On the collection level, one dwarf has loosed a quiver so far, out of dozens of collections by marksdwarves. He is the most elite of my marksdwarves, and has also got the highest observer and discipline skill in the fort. So - highest observer, archery, marksdwarf, and discipline skills (legendary+3 minimum in all) means they will fire from the collection level. I think. Haven't had time to prove it beyond all doubt.
Marksdwarves collecting bolts get a job cancellation error (doesn't matter, they still pick up a full quiver), then run up to the top to fire. Not practically harmful, just means you get an annoying error for every 25 bolts fired.

Other than that, perfection. Really not that big a deal to set up, and once I get undead invaders my bait shouldn't get derpshotted every now and then. That it saves the vast majority of my bolts while letting my archers loose on live targets is the important thing, which I can't say for all my other live fire schemes. All I need is a way to make the lower levels inaccessible to marksdwarves, I think - to avoid the bait getting a faceful of bolts every once in a while and to avoid the cancellation spam. A possible solution is simply having a few dedicated haulers and a massive stockpile on the top level.

Basically: thanks Qrox, this is a miracle of archery training. I love you. PUT THIS ON THE WIKI.

EDIT: sorry about the humungous images, it's late and I have no time to crop them.

[Qrox]

Glad to hear it works for you, Skullsploder!
I've also had an orge who killed a FB... Orges are so badass.
Are the 2 bolts missed every 25 bolts or is it only the first 25 bolts?
I've never had dwarfs shoot from the collection level. They had highest crossbow and archey skills so I guess it's the other skills (observation perhaps? If I make a similar structure in arena mode I can't see what's down the chute on the collection level. Don't know if observation affects FOV.)
Also got the cancellation spam in my running fort. But when I was testing it in another save it never happened so I guess there must be something that makes a difference (observation again, perhaps?)
I'll put it on the wiki once I return to my computer...

Edit: Back to my computer and updated the wiki. And I see your images skullsploder, it's such a pleasant place you've carved out for yourselves (:

[Skullsploder]

Haha thanks, but I'm afraid I'm back at this thread to report a severe issue: vengeful thoughts. I set up a schedule so that every month 10 civilians would be training with this, and 1 year later all my civilians are elite marksdwarves, but htey are all also severely stressed from hundreds of vengeful thoughts. Pretty much everyone except my close combat squad members is flashing a red arrow. Not sure there's anyway to fix this. Discipline training perhaps?

Aside from that, dwarves stopped hitting the bait when they were in large squads of ten crammed in there, even at legendary level, so that's a plus. Also I believe the dwarf hitting the bait from the collection level was just me observing poorly, because it hasn't happened again after hundreds of quivers being emptied and collected.

And man oh man you should have seen what happened when the goblins came a-calling. 70 legendary marksdwarves are a glorious sight when they all fire at once.

[Nagidal]

How do you manage to get the trolls or any target creatures in place and ensure they don't get away?

Where do I find the article on the wiki? I cannot find any link to this in the archery or training articles.

[Qrox]

Haha thanks, but I'm afraid I'm back at this thread to report a severe issue: vengeful thoughts. I set up a schedule so that every month 10 civilians would be training with this, and 1 year later all my civilians are elite marksdwarves, but htey are all also severely stressed from hundreds of vengeful thoughts. Pretty much everyone except my close combat squad members is flashing a red arrow. Not sure there's anyway to fix this. Discipline training perhaps?

Recruit only those with 'not easily becoming stressed' disposition? And of course, give them legendary quarters, dining hall, ☼crundle meat roasts☼, and drinks. After the introduction of the new morale, everything that involves a live bait will pretty much spam vengeful thoughts.

How do you manage to get the trolls or any target creatures in place and ensure they don't get away?

Where do I find the article on the wiki? I cannot find any link to this in the archery or training articles.

If you want to be 100% safe, carve the structure out of natural rock and smooth it (so that it's not climbable, see skullsploder's image), trap the creature with a cage, build the cage near the structure and pit it from the collection level. The wiki article is here.

[NCommander]

Live training seems a lot less practical with the most recent updates because stress takes forever and a day to go back down. Like ingame years.

[Skullsploder]

Live training seems a lot less practical with the most recent updates because stress takes forever and a day to go back down. Like ingame years.

The vengeful thoughts are bad, but honestly inpracticality inshmacricality, it made legendary marksdwarves out of raw recruits in one month! I mean the vengeful thoughts are bad, but I didn't emphasise enough that my fort of 80 dwarves is now 70 MUTHAFUCKIN ELITE MARKSDWARVES and 10 weaponlords! And I could have done this in one month if I'd set them all to train at once!

This should definitely be linked to in the training and archery wiki articles as well, not just the bolt splitting one, as it's even easier to set up than a danger room and produces legendary warriors much more quickly.

EDIT: forgot to add, in the new version they haul bolts MUCH more effectively, as they gather up a binload in their arms before going back to the main stockpile to store it in a bin.

[Iliithid]

So I know I'm sort of necroing this thread, but I'm curious about the design and I don't quite understand how it works. So you have your archers in one tube without fortifications, and a monster at the bottom of another tube with no fortifications... How does the archer know to shoot at anything? There's no visual. Maybe I'm just not veteran enough at the game to understand what's happening here. What's the space between the tubes? Just open space? (Besides the bridge to the pickup, of course.) I'm pretty confused despite being pretty used to the Phoebus textures.

[TheFlame52]

Well, I know the reason the creature can't be hit is because for some reason, suspended climbing creatures can't be hit.

I would totally use this if I didn't have an infinite supply of demons to shoot.

[Iliithid]

Well, now I feel a bit silly; It was 3 AM when I wrote that post and was obviously delirious. I understand pretty much everything about it now, however I still think this design's screenshots could benefit from a legend so we know exactly what to build on each level. One question that still remains however: in the new revised design, how do you get a monster into its spot at the base of the tube? Initially have an opening and then wall it off once the target is inside? Seems like it would be very tricky to keep anything from immediately scurrying away to rampage in your fort.

[miauw62]

Yeah, a proper code-tagged version of this with a legend would be great. I'm surprised this thread got so little attention, an FPS-friendly bolt splitter slash marksdwarf trainer is GOOD SHIT.

[Bearskie]

Eh well, might as well give it a shot with MSpaint. This is how it works:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Marksdwarves are stationed at the X. They go up the tower through the left hand side and down the hatch.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Marksdwarves gain line of sight to the creature (blue line) and start firing. However, due to the firing angle, the bolts will always follow the red line trajectory and land harmlessly on the floor.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

When done, unlock the door at z+2, unforbid the bolts, and collect.


The more efficient design works using the same principle, but with two notable differences:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

At the red square, there is no longer a hatch. Instead, it is an down staircase.
Instead of marksdwarves being stationed at the square, a 1-tile burrow consisting of the square is created, and marksdwarves are ordered to defend the burrow.

The marksdwarves will thus pile up in the 1-tile burrow (red square), see the creature, and start firing as per usual.

[Bearskie]

One question that still remains however: in the new revised design, how do you get a monster into its spot at the base of the tube? Initially have an opening and then wall it off once the target is inside? Seems like it would be very tricky to keep anything from immediately scurrying away to rampage in your fort.

I would assume that the creature should be within a cage, where it is then built and connected to a lever to be remotely released. Either that or it is pitted from the z+2 hole.

[Chief10]

Eh well, might as well give it a shot with MSpaint. This is how it works:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Marksdwarves are stationed at the X. They go up the tower through the left hand side and down the hatch.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Marksdwarves gain line of sight to the creature (blue line) and start firing. However, due to the firing angle, the bolts will always follow the red line trajectory and land harmlessly on the floor.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

When done, unlock the door at z+2, unforbid the bolts, and collect.


The more efficient design works using the same principle, but with two notable differences:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

At the red square, there is no longer a hatch. Instead, it is an down staircase.
Instead of marksdwarves being stationed at the square, a 1-tile burrow consisting of the square is created, and marksdwarves are ordered to defend the burrow.

The marksdwarves will thus pile up in the 1-tile burrow (red square), see the creature, and start firing as per usual.

This is a perfect explanation, thank you for posting it.

Would it work to tie up the troll in a chain at the bottom of the pit?

[Bearskie]

As long as the troll is confined within that one square, I don't think it matters whether or not he is chained. Maybe it does help to prevent climbing, i dont know. Along with all the usual problems faced when chaining hostile enemies.