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[martinuzz]

I don't see how paid mods would drive up the quality or increase standards.

[Reelya]

Because people can dedicate time to working on them as their day job. Money coming in also means they can hire artists and stuff. If your entire source of content is limited to what unemployed people are willing to do in their spare time then naturally, it's pretty limited.

Think about it, if someone is able to make a "cool sword" in their free time, sell that for $2 and 10000 people buy it, now you have an industry where professional modelers will be looking at that going "i could make a living doing that". And those people can in fact churn out high-quality content on a deadline and within budget, consistently, because that's what they do.

Those people aren't the same people who mod shit for free in their spare time. More talented people will come if you can make a living out of it, and there will be an inevitable escalation of competition.

[Neonivek]

Because people can dedicate time to working on them as their day job.

Well... in all fairness...

Quality and standards would probably drop...

People forget that even "Golden Ages" kind of create garbage. The Golden Age of Hollywood and the Golden Age of Children's Animation both had more trash then a typical time period.

For the most part the majority of people who are interested in making mods... Is making mods.

So earning money off mods will attract people who are mostly interested in the money, so it will increase shovel ware. (not to mention that community pressure typically makes low quality mods... disappear. Not so when money is involved.)

Likewise because money is involved people no longer can really pick and chose the best ones and kind of pick and chose until they come out with the good mods. So the standards will drop as well... So people will just be satisfied with functional mods.

Think about it, if someone is able to make a "cool sword" in their free time, sell that for $2 and 10000 people buy it, now you have an industry where professional modelers will be looking at that going "i could make a living doing that". And those people can in fact churn out high-quality content on a deadline and within budget, consistently, because that's what they do.

Which come to think about it... Your example sort of inexplicably agrees with me. A two dollar sword mod and everyone thinks "Hey! I could make a two dollar sword mod too! and I am much more talented than that. I can put in like, a few extra hours than that guy".

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But that is why I think for quality... what you should care about is not "Overall quality" (unless it is particularly bad) but rather how much HIGH quality material is created.

That is in fact my entire outlook on many things. I don't care how long a videogame lasts... I'd trade a hundred hours of meh for ten hours of great fun.

And for the frequency of High Quality mods... That COULD increase...

though I am predicting the App market... So we are going to go through a few years of just flat out unmitigated garbage... filled with people out to make a quick buck with even the good products getting buried because there is no way to tell what is good and what is bad and there is just too much there for anyone to sift through... AND where even the popular stuff is often just garbage that manage to grab people's addiction.

[Reelya]

I think you'd see more culling than your suggesting. e.g. a paid mod store has limited "front page" space. It's going to be competitive in the same way that Steam is competitive. Sure, there's dreck on steam, but you have to delve deep to see most of that.

Which come to think about it... Your example sort of inexplicably agrees with me. A two dollar sword mod and everyone thinks "Hey! I could make a two dollar sword mod too! and I am much more talented than that. I can put in like, a few extra hours than that guy".

But the point is that the old sword is a baseline, and if your sword doesn't measure up then it won't score in quality or cost. So each iteration requires the bar to be raised. Yeah the point is that someone is willing to put a few more hours than the last person into making the thing.

If you say that this will lower the quality because current modders work until "perfection" for free, i.e. they don't care how many hours it takes. Well then that's the bar that people have to meet. Better than the free stuff. And after that, you gotta be better than the paid stuff. Ad infinitum.

[Neonivek]

It eventually will lead to that. But as I said it is kind of like the App market.

I did imply that after those few years we will get something. It is just going to be hell until it does.

[ChairmanPoo]

The main problem, I think, is that it attempts to drag mods into the evergrowing DLC shitfest

[Neonivek]

The main problem, I think, is that it attempts to drag mods into the evergrowing DLC shitfest

You know I would love if eventually mods actually manage to compete with DLC, forcing DLC to be fairly priced and well produced. Instead of high priced "One day at the office" affairs they often are.

But knowing how it will work... I have a feeling games with cosmetic DLC will ban mods... which because there is paid mods they will be allowed.

[Dorsidwarf]

I'm viciously against paid mods because ultimately, this is just a microtransaction except you dont know if the microtransaction will work, and you're paying a different person.

[Putnam]

So no.  Most people are like me or Putnam, who would make something like that as a demo, or as a personal taste type mod-- and do not make a fuss about it when people dont use or download them if we make them available. (We make them available as an afterthought to making them for ourselves) However-- people with an inflated self ego *WILL*, and being the disproportionate voice, they WILL move the mainstream.

Ha! You presume far too much about my own motivations. I make mods for other people. I'm... really unsure you've been around much in the modding forums, I definitely have made a fuss over how people don't use or download my mods.

[Neonivek]

So no.  Most people are like me or Putnam, who would make something like that as a demo, or as a personal taste type mod-- and do not make a fuss about it when people dont use or download them if we make them available. (We make them available as an afterthought to making them for ourselves) However-- people with an inflated self ego *WILL*, and being the disproportionate voice, they WILL move the mainstream.

Ha! You presume far too much about my own motivations. I make mods for other people. I'm... really unsure you've been around much in the modding forums, I definitely have made a fuss over how people don't use or download my mods.

Hey can you make a Fallout 4 mod that allows you to organize your colonies from a CPU you can build?

Ohh wait your a modder not a miracle worker

[Putnam]

Now that I think it, I should definitely describe that better.

I want to see people playing my mods. I want to see them tell stories about playing my mods. I make mods because the magic of Dwarf Fortress still makes me excited and I want to add to it in interesting ways.

[Neonivek]

Now that I think it, I should definitely describe that better.

I want to see people playing my mods. I want to see them tell stories about playing my mods. I make mods because the magic of Dwarf Fortress still makes me excited and I want to add to it in interesting ways.

It reminds me of a Scene in Log Horizon

Where some rich aristocrat goes to a jewelry salesmen and basically loves their stuff so much they want to buy them out. Yet they don't want to but the aristocrat can't see why they would even object... I mean it is a store, they are being sold for money.

But it is kind of revealed later that the reason the Jeweler runs the stall is because they want to see as many people as possible enjoy their goods. Charging is just a way to make it smoother and pay for the costs... Well it can also be interpreted that they do want to make money, but that just selling it all that way would be joyless (a mix of business and passion).

Likewise: Some artists I know actually have no issue making art for free and frankly don't care about money even though they could make it hand over foot... But they get bombarded with requests. Charging 100 or more dollars was a great way to limit requests and make sure that anyone paying is someone who really wants it.

HECK... I am almost the opposite... I went from free, to paid, to preferring free and going back to it.

[Eagleon]

I can't read all of this thread without getting severely depressed. Suffice it to say, this whole fiasco turned me off of modding completely, and made it harder to stomach working on music. The idea that we should turn back to patronage ("donations") to support the arts completely ignores the problems that this created for the underclass in the renaissance. In fact I would go so far as to say that patronage manufactured the concept of "talent" wholecloth as an excuse to devalue the work of people who simply could not afford to hone their craft to the levels of the "greats."

By and large, electronic music is hypercommercial as a result of the perception that music is cheap to produce, create, and distribute, where the reality is that the thousands of hours musicians put into learning their craft (yes, including electronic musicians, including the dubstep brosephs people love to hate) represents a heavy cost of its own, and the most successful commercial electronic music groups have dozens of ghost producers in their ranks. If I could spend all of my time working on music, I would. I don't want it to be a hobby. I want it to be my life.

That's just not possible, because people think what I do should be free - my family needs my help, financially, so no, I can't even really justify just scraping by for the sake of this. The stereotypical starving artist bullshit would make me a monster. My family would support me, but I have a three year old niece I would be taking food from if I did not work. And why yes, I do suck. Because I can't spend all my time on music, I'm not where I could be in terms of my skill with composition and my level of practice.

At the same time I'm expected to give away my work for free as a "labor of love," I'm scowled at for being an unsuccessful amateur. Amateur, as in someone who does not make money from their work. I looked at making music in collaboration with other Skyrim modders (making a standalone collection for extending the existing themes was the next step) as a possible out when this first bubbled up to my attention. I seriously geared up to approach it as a possible business - I've loved Elder Scrolls since Daggerfall for its music - and pretty much overnight I saw that collapse into a gibbering heap of greed.

Yes, I would call demanding something I make be given to you for free greed. I simply don't buy any of the problems that were brought up as the real reason so many people were screaming about this, because under it all was that "labor of love" thing, and there was literally nothing stopping Bethesda or Valve from fixing the valid problems such as mod theft with moderation up to disabling accounts. I'm at the point where I'm only sharing my new music with my family, because every single distribution service - Soundcloud, Youtube, even Bandcamp - profits greatly from the belligerent apathy of our culture towards music.

I really thought this could open up so much for artists, writers, etc. Choice of Games comes to mind as something where writers can still make money off of their fiction, despite writing being devalued to the point where we expect journalists to work off of royalties. What is so repugnant about music and art that any similar outlet for them is crushed under this double standard?

[Sergarr]

Pretty much proving my point here, Eagleon. Just like I've said, free modding suppresses talented people due to making them unable to do their favorite thing full time. What a fucking surprise, eh?

At least I can see the attitude is slowly changing for the better, if only because people in charge of Steam are definitely pro-paid modding. I'm sure that they'll eventually be able to push it through the inertia of the "mods are supposed to be free, end of the line" crowd.

[Neonivek]

At least I can see the attitude is slowly changing for the better, if only because people in charge of Steam are definitely pro-paid modding. I'm sure that they'll eventually be able to push it through the inertia of the "mods are supposed to be free, end of the line" crowd.

Well... Mods are a "Inferior product" (I swear that isn't the right term)

When they aren't, they aren't doing their proper role within the market.

Sorry the term means... Lets say there are standard lightbulbs... There are also lower quality lightbulbs for cheaper... The second group is Modding.

Sure, there are higher quality bulbs for cheaper but that doesn't always exclude it from that perceived market.

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That is sort of the difference between what the Arts went through and what Modding is going through.

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So a lot of these changes hurt modding as an inferior product (I SWEAR that isn't the correct term in economics). Which runs contrary to what the majority of people use it for.