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[Graknorke]

(Hey guys I think leyic might be a laissez-faire capitalist.)

Ad hominem attack. Classy. As if games and art are better off fully socialized (i.e. CBBE is banned because the People's Committee for Wholesomeness in Modding has determined that its content is unwholesome; Caliente is sent to a Learning to Live facility for rehabilitation).

For it to be an ad-hominem I would have to be both insulting you, which I wasn't, and using that as a reason why you must be wrong, which I wasn't. I was just poking fun at that fact that it comes through very, very strongly.

[Sergarr]

Leyic, you seem to assume that "professional resources" are somehow better than what properly motivated hobbyists can already do.

Hint: they're not.

So why do indie game devs keep commissioning pros for art, sound, music, and voice?

Because indie game devs are not properly motivated hobbyists. Most of them are kinda shit at actually making content, so they need to borrow one from professional developers. But properly motivated hobbyists can make mods with several times more content than what professional developers can do.

So the order goes like that: Indie game developers < Professional game developers < Properly motivated hobbyists.

[Leyic]

As I said before (the previous page), this only works if there are proper controls in place. What is 100% guaranteed to happen (AS IT ALREADY HAS!!!) is that any good mods that are free will get ripped off and put out as paid mods by unscrupulous bastards - which makes it pretty much pointless for someone to invest their time into it, if it's just going to be ripped off by a hundred people trying to make some fast cash.

This is a bigger problem than other markets as mods are, by their very nature, derivative. How can you say that someone ripped off your work, if you yourself are (in very simplified terms) ripping off the work of someone else.

It's a literal disaster. I hope 4chan floods their offices with black ink.

(You're replying to me, so I guess you're talking to me.) I've already said that the ValveThesda approach is horrific. What I don't agree with is that monetizing mods is wrong on principle. No one's gotten away with ripping off the "commissioned mods" I've mentioned. The same could've been done for Skyrim had Beth approached this cautiously.

For it to be an ad-hominem I would have to be both insulting you, which I wasn't, and using that as a reason why you must be wrong, which I wasn't. I was just poking fun at that fact that it comes through very, very strongly.

I do consider it to be an insult, for what it's worth.

Because indie game devs are not properly motivated hobbyists. Most of them are kinda shit at actually making content, so they need to borrow one from professional developers. But properly motivated hobbyists can make mods with several times more content than what professional developers can do.

So the order goes like that: Indie game developers < Professional game developers < Properly motivated hobbyists.

You're confusing game creation with asset creation. Devs that can do absolutely everything are like sparkley polka-dotted unicorn pegasi: They don't exist. The guy who made "Crypt of the NecroDancer" made a very fun, well polished game, but was smart enough to get someone else to do the music because he knew he couldn't do it himself. That's not being lazy, selfish, or greedy, that's understanding his limits and staying within his expertise. Also, indie game devs selling their work are professionals. Anyone working in business is a professional by definition.

<snip>

Now I understand your point of view. I waded into this thread when people were complaining about being called entitled for wanting free mods. That's what I've been reacting to. As I've already said, the ValveThesda scheme is terrible. I'm not going to defend it.

[Sergarr]

Leyic, you seem to assume that "professional resources" are somehow better than what properly motivated hobbyists can already do.

Hint: they're not.

So why do indie game devs keep commissioning pros for art, sound, music, and voice?

Because indie game devs are not properly motivated hobbyists. Most of them are kinda shit at actually making content, so they need to borrow one from professional developers. But properly motivated hobbyists can make mods with several times more content than what professional developers can do.

So the order goes like that: Indie game developers < Professional game developers < Properly motivated hobbyists.

You're confusing game creation with asset creation. Devs that can do absolutely everything are like sparkley polka-dotted unicorn pegasi: They don't exist. The guy who made "Crypt of the NecroDancer" made a very fun, well polished game, but was smart enough to get someone else to do the music because he knew he couldn't do it himself. That's not being lazy, selfish, or greedy, that's understanding his limits and staying within his expertise.

The thing is, hobbyists, due to the fact that they do their work for free, can combine their effort much much easier, and with cooperation, become stronger than any professional or indie developer could be, because while one person indeed can't do anything, many people can.

Also, indie game devs selling their work are professionals. Anyone working in business is a professional by definition.

You were the first one to try to put a line between "indies" and "pros":

So why do indie game devs keep commissioning pros for art, sound, music, and voice?

[Bauglir]

Internet rages on.

Good God, this is petty.

[nenjin]

Internet rages on.

Good God, this is petty.

Yes, 4chan activism, at its finest.

[10ebbor10]

Petty and inefficient.

They could be using this to infiltrate orders in Valve's command chain, but no... Or identify tghe type of fax and print it's error page.

[Leyic]

The thing is, hobbyists, due to the fact that they do their work for free, can combine their effort much much easier, and with cooperation, become stronger than any professional or indie developer could be, because while one person indeed can't do anything, many people can.

(Emphasis mine.) Working in a group is inherently difficult. Depending on one another's schedules, differences of opinion, conflicting egos, etc. While hobbyists could, in theory, do just as you suggest, it isn't the norm, as it requires a degree of professionalism not found in your typical just-for-fun hobbyist. Whereas someone in their actual job isn't going to treat it just for fun because they understand that their livlihood is on the line. A pro artist isn't going to disappear in the middle of a job because they got bored. That's a crucial difference between the pros and the hobbyists.

You were the first one to try to put a line between "indies" and "pros":

So why do indie game devs keep commissioning pros for art, sound, music, and voice?

The line is between pros and hobbyists. To rephrase the question, why do indie game devs not ask hobbyists for art, sound, music, and voice?

[Baffler]

Internet rages on.

Good God, this is petty.

Yes, 4chan activism, at its finest.

And to think at one time, Valve was one of the most highly respected companies in the industry. Remember when they were the awesome guys who put together masterworks like Portal, Half-Life, and Team Fortress? Now the internet is mad enough that they could announce Half-Life 3 tomorrow and people would just write it off as milking the franchise.

[Frumple]

The line is between pros and hobbyists. To rephrase the question, why do indie game devs not ask hobbyists for art, sound, music, and voice?

They do. All the freaking time. So far as I'm aware, significantly more asset creation in indie development is done by hobbyists, generally in exchange for some degree of inclusion on the development team, than it is by professionals who often require up-front costs an indie startup can't afford. Where are you getting the idea that indie devs don't, regularly, send out calls for non-pro aid from?

[Sergarr]

The thing is, hobbyists, due to the fact that they do their work for free, can combine their effort much much easier, and with cooperation, become stronger than any professional or indie developer could be, because while one person indeed can't do anything, many people can.

(Emphasis mine.) Working in a group is inherently difficult. Depending on one another's schedules, differences of opinion, conflicting egos, etc. While hobbyists could, in theory, do just as you suggest, it isn't the norm, as it requires a degree of professionalism not found in your typical just-for-fun hobbyist. Whereas someone in their actual job isn't going to treat it just for fun because they understand that their livlihood is on the line. A pro artist isn't going to disappear in the middle of a job because they got bored. That's a crucial difference between the pros and the hobbyists.

You clearly haven't seen how much can those professional artists half-ass their work. Like half of technology images in Civilization V were pulled from the public domain with an shitty visual effect added. And that's only the most outstanding example, there are many smaller ones where professional Big Name artists have performed much worse than comparative hobbyists, while also getting obscene money for it.

You were the first one to try to put a line between "indies" and "pros":

So why do indie game devs keep commissioning pros for art, sound, music, and voice?

The line is between pros and hobbyists. To rephrase the question, why do indie game devs not ask hobbyists for art, sound, music, and voice?

They do, it's just less noticeable because hobbyists don't ask for money and thus get less public attention. But indie game devs have certainly did so. Like with voice acting, I know at least one game which has got it's voice acting by casting a lot of hobbyists and choosing the best ones. Incidentally, they were as good as professionals at this, if not better.

[da_nang]

Bethesda turned on its damage control.

[Putnam]

The thing is, hobbyists, due to the fact that they do their work for free, can combine their effort much much easier, and with cooperation, become stronger than any professional or indie developer could be, because while one person indeed can't do anything, many people can.

While hobbyists could, in theory, do just as you suggest, it isn't the norm, as it requires a degree of professionalism not found in your typical just-for-fun hobbyist.

Shit. Clearly, I do not exist, nor do the rest of the DFHack people or the SKSE people or the Wrye Bash people or the TES3/4/5Edit people or wierd or

BREATHE

I'm not even that into modding that isn't DF modding and I managed to get every single one of those people off the top of my head. Collaboration is the norm in these communities.

[Sergarr]

The thing is, hobbyists, due to the fact that they do their work for free, can combine their effort much much easier, and with cooperation, become stronger than any professional or indie developer could be, because while one person indeed can't do anything, many people can.

While hobbyists could, in theory, do just as you suggest, it isn't the norm, as it requires a degree of professionalism not found in your typical just-for-fun hobbyist.

Shit. Clearly, I do not exist, nor do the rest of the DFHack people or the SKSE people or the Wrye Bash people or the TES3/4/5Edit people or wierd or

BREATHE

I'm not even that into modding that isn't DF modding and I managed to get every single one of those people off the top of my head. Collaboration is the norm in these communities.

Clearly, a person cannot be just-for-fun and be professional at the same time. You are either good at working with other people and dead serious all the time, or you're shit at working together with other people and have a just-for-fun attitude. There clearly are no other variants possible. Clearly.

[Leyic]

The line is between pros and hobbyists. To rephrase the question, why do indie game devs not ask hobbyists for art, sound, music, and voice?

They do. All the freaking time. So far as I'm aware, significantly more asset creation in indie development is done by hobbyists, generally in exchange for some degree of inclusion on the development team, than it is by professionals who often require up-front costs an indie startup can't afford. Where are you getting the idea that indie devs don't, regularly, send out calls for non-pro aid from?

*sigh* This is why I liked my original version of the question before Sergarr went and misinterpreted it. Yes, there is hobbyist work in the industry. There is also commissioned pro work. My point is, if free hobbyist work is so much better than paid pro work, why are devs still hiring pros? You'd think all the artsits and modelers and such would be out of work yet they aren't.

You clearly haven't seen how much can those professional artists half-ass their work. Like half of technology images in Civilization V were pulled from the public domain with an shitty visual effect added. And that's only the most outstanding example, there are many smaller ones where professional Big Name artists have performed much worse than comparative hobbyists, while also getting obscene money for it.

They do, it's just less noticeable because hobbyists don't ask for money and thus get less public attention. But indie game devs have certainly did so. Like with voice acting, I know at least one game which has got it's voice acting by casting a lot of hobbyists and choosing the best ones. Incidentally, they were as good as professionals at this, if not better.

So you're going to cherry pick the worst examples of pro work and the best examples of hobbyist work and still act like you're making a cogent argument? Remind me, how many complete games with significantly new assets did Bethesda manage to produce in the time that the Tamriel Rebuilt project has been running? What about all the hobbyist content on Nexus; you're really telling me that all of it is inherently better than all pro work?

Shit. Clearly, I do not exist, nor do the rest of the DFHack people or the SKSE people or the Wrye Bash people or the TES3/4/5Edit people or wierd or

BREATHE

I'm not even that into modding that isn't DF modding and I managed to get every single one of those people off the top of my head. Collaboration is the norm in these communities.

For each of the groups you've named, several more have crashed and burned when people up and left. Collaboration is the norm of the successful communities, it is not the norm of all communities.

Case in point: How many Morrowind fan and mod download sites are still around? There's Great House Fliggerty, Slof still has her site, theelderscrolls.info, probably a couple others I'm forgetting. Oh, and Morrowind Source, now called Nexus, the one where the guy in charge thought to treat it like a business and now has employees and expenses in the neighborhood of $500k each year. How is this supposed to be an example of hobbyist work always being superior to professional work?

Clearly, a person cannot be just-for-fun and be professional at the same time. You are either good at working with other people and dead serious all the time, or you're shit at working together with other people and have a just-for-fun attitude. There clearly are no other variants possible. Clearly.

You can enjoy your work, but yes you do have to be professional about it. Case in point, my prior example about Nexus. Try telling your boss that you'd rather be doing something else so you're taking the rest of the week off and see how well that goes.

Editing my last line for more relevant examples:
Try telling your boss that you're going to...
...do the line work and he can apply the tone,
...write about ship girls instead of a grizzled sci-fi anti-hero,
...be in QC all day instead of in the sound booth,
...work on some cool feature you just thought of instead of being in QC,

...and see how well that goes.