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[Bauglir]

I suppose we have different ideas about what the phrase means, then. At any rate, he gave up something valuable. In his case, he was misled. The reason this is an issue at all is because money was injected into the whole business, and with it issues of what's fair. Somehow, that didn't seem to be an issue before.

And "fairness" introduces all the issues upon which this whole fustercluck turns.

I mean, I'm not really sure that Valve's cut isn't fair. I'm pretty sure Bethesda's isn't, but it's all honestly beside the point - the hobby should never have been about fairness. It was always about making awesome things, and now it manifestly is doing less of that.

EDIT: For what it's worth, I'm aware that under my ideas of what constitutes creative control, you give some of that up whenever you so much as publish. I'm not particularly arguing that he ought to have complete creative control over his work.

[Flying Dice]

Stealing is malicious. Are y'all actually considering the consequences of what you're suggesting? That someone can buy a mod only to have that content pulled out from under them at the author's whim? That would actually be apocalyptic. No one could trust any modder to not pull an ass move like that. It also establishes precedent that Valve's covenant is not to be trusted. What if an indie dev wants to pull their work? What if Bethesda creates their own storefront and replaces Skyrim on Steam with an empty file? This is the sort of thing that could completely destroy the entire distribution model as every reseller from GOG all the way down to Hanako Games can no longer trust their clients to not pull content.

No, this one thing is pretty clear. By hiring Valve to manage the storefront, you're signing away your rights to control over that storefront. If Valve says refunds have to be initiated by the purchaser, then that's how it is. Period. If a modder wants to retain financial control over their product, they can establish their own storefront and negotiate directly with Bethesda.

You say that like it's the modders are the ones who wouldn't be willing to give refunds to get back control over their work.

Funny thing is, I've yet to see a single modder speaking out in favor of this except as a way to stop their work being stolen or because they didn't know what it would entail.

I'd think every modder putting a legit non-joke paid mod on Workshop is in favor of this, unless they're masochists.

I'm looking at the workshop right now. The mods fall into five categories: Wet & Cold, mods whose authors make it explicitly clear that they're still distributing for free (i.e. ones trying to avoid theft), mods which are blatant ripoffs of free mods, mods which are obvious jokes or protests, and "mods" akin to that "shadowscale set" that's a shitty hackjob (see Skyrim thread for relevant links) that some incompetent ass made in an afternoon.

I'm guessing you're counting all of the cash grab shitty weapon and armor mods. Those are mods in the same sense that dropping an extra weapon statblock into DF raws is modding, i.e. minimal effort and no appreciable change to anything. Things like that go ignored on the Nexus for good reason. I'd download to give better documentation of how shit they are, but I'm not shelling out dozens of dollars for the mod equivalent of shovelware.

Arthmoor and Shezrie both have paid mods up and they're both long participating and well respected members of the community. A number of quality mods on Nexus are now appearing on Workshop, either being pulled from Nexus completely, or with the Nexus version being a lesser or outdated version of the mod on Workshop (SkyUI being the most prominent example). Art takes time to make, with 3d modellers regularly being paid on a contractual or commission basis for their work; just because some of the work is shoddy doesn't mean all of it is shoddy. If these people see no benefit to this scheme, why are they setting up shop on Workshop?

Check the top sellers list. Not the most popular or most subscribed, those are dominated by free mods. The top sellers list has Midas Magic (which is unsurprising, the guy's a bit of a scumbag and his magic mod is both less interesting and more unbalanced than several others). It has the following which are functionally identical to anything you'd find for free elsewhere: A meh graphical overhaul with OMGSOKOOL shaders, a generic copy of better basic needs mods, Wet & Cold, a metric fuckton of trash weapon and armor mods, a lazy cave settlement, and a clutter-cleanup of Volkihar, which is minimal effort and available for free, but sells for $3.50 on the Workshop. That's it.

If we look into the under review paid mods, we see: Yet Another Big Titteh bodymod outfit, a meh HD retexture of vanilla hairs, a bunch of cheat mods, and even more joke mods. There is all of one mod that looks interesting in the slightest, but I wouldn't bother with it even if it was free. Also, a couple shitty player homes. If we move on to the next page, we see a shitty Lydia pallet-swap replacer for a single NPC, more joke mods, another shitty player home, more cheat mods, a "mod" that literally just turns grass density to max... for $2, MORE fucking cheat mods, more joke mods, a mod that turns all clothing into light armor.... And time for a new page, which contains: a second mediocre graphics overhaul that looks worse than my free setup, a beggar looking for free money for no content, more cheat mods, more joke mods, YAFFWBT (Yet another female follower with big tits), another shitty OMG SATURATION SO KOOL lighting mod, more joke mods, more cheat mods, an upload of one mediocre stealth mod for an otherwise reasonable price, more joke and cheat mods, a shitty glass sword pallet swap, and...

GODS ABOVE AND BELOW, A MOD THAT ISN'T SHIT THREE PAGES DEEP IN THE UNDER REVIEW SECTION! Blacklake's Skyforge weapons and shields are decent mods. Not $3.50 decent, but possibly worth downloading for free. *deep breath*

PAGE FOUR: another shit reskin, another cheat mod. Oh, and an upload of one of the inferior combat AI mods. That's it.

Out of all of the approved mods and four pages of mods waiting for approval, we have the following that are worth getting (when they're free): Wet & Cold, Blacklake's Skyforge Weapons

Wait, wait, hold on. Oh, wait, I was thinking of DREOGAN'S Skyforge Weapons and Shields, which have been removed from the Nexus because this Blacklake asshole fucking stole them.

Spoiler: BUT BUT DICE MODS RNT BEING STOLEN: FUCK YOU HERE'S PROOF (click to show/hide)

AND HERE'S WHERE THE MOD PAGE USED TO BE: http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/36815/?

[Rolan7]

Wait, wait, hold on. Oh, wait, I was thinking of DREOGAN'S Skyforge Weapons and Shields, which have been removed from the Nexus because this Blacklake asshole fucking stole them.

I still really don't understand this at all.  Someone steals Dreogan's content...  So Dreogan pulls the content from the Nexus, accomplishing... What?

It's no easier for him to get the content pulled from Steam, possibly harder.  Any future thieves are inconvenienced, but they're more likely to get away with it because there's no longer a free, months-old so legit, free version sitting on the Nexus.

This is almost like someone forging a claim to your duchy, and in response saying "Well fine, I'm no longer Duke!"

... Also none of the three paid mods that user has posted have been approved yet, so this is a pitiful example of supposed theft.  Even assuming Blacklake isn't Dreogan's steam account.  Which would explain why the creator would pull the content in this specific case (though of course others are pulling their content from the Nexus in fear of theft, and I still don't understand how that helps anything).

[Flying Dice]

Wait, wait, hold on. Oh, wait, I was thinking of DREOGAN'S Skyforge Weapons and Shields, which have been removed from the Nexus because this Blacklake asshole fucking stole them.

I still really don't understand this at all.  Someone steals Dreogan's content...  So Dreogan pulls the content from the Nexus, accomplishing... What?

It's no easier for him to get the content pulled from Steam, possibly harder.  Any future thieves are inconvenienced, but they're more likely to get away with it because there's no longer a free, months-old so legit, free version sitting on the Nexus.

This is almost like someone forging a claim to your duchy, and in response saying "Well fine, I'm no longer Duke!"

... Also none of the three paid mods that user has posted have been approved yet, so this is a pitiful example of supposed theft.  Even assuming Blacklake isn't Dreogan's steam account.  Which would explain why the creator would pull the content in this specific case (though of course others are pulling their content from the Nexus in fear of theft, and I still don't understand how that helps anything).

I didn't say it was a sensible response. Y'know, apart from the fact that the mod'll never actually be updated if the thief doesn't actually know how to mod.

That said, I was more getting at the fact that, of all of the paid mods either approved or up for approval, only two were even worth considering when they were free, and one of those is possibly stolen. Wossname tried to argue that there are quality paid mods up on the Workshop, and I went through every single one of them specifically to point out that he's either lying, delusional, or not fact-checking.

[Leyic]

You say that like it's the modders are the ones who wouldn't be willing to give refunds to get back control over their work.

Chesko was wanting to issue a refund using Valve's and Bethesda's money, not to mention it still would've been against his customers' consent (I can't emphasize this enough; once money is involved he can no longer act like a hobbyist by packing his bags and leaving every time something doesn't go his way). Nexus modders don't get to delete their work from your hard drive when they don't want people to have it anymore; why shouldn't the Steam library be just as protected?

<snip>a lazy cave settlement, and a clutter-cleanup of Volkihar, which is minimal effort and available for free, but sells for $3.50 on the Workshop. That's it.

The cave settlement is Shezrie's. If you think it's lazy, you're free to try making your own. The Volkihar cleanup is Arthmoor's. What's wrong with competition? There's an entire thread on Nexus about mods possibly making the jump, which includes Helsmyrr Village, SkyUI, Skyforge Shields and Weapons, various Skyrim Realistic Texture Overhauls, Skyrim Vanilla Dungeon Pack, iNeed, and Wet and Cold (and Midas Magic which isn't listed for some reason). These are all modders who apparently thought that making their work paid content on Workshop would be a good idea, which is what this whole exercise is about. "No one" is speaking out in favor of pro modding, yet plenty of people are hopping on board the pay train.

Also, quality is in the eye of the beholder. Your opinions regarding the quality of others' work are irrelevant with regards to the decisions those modders have made. Likewise, I don't tell you what you're allowed to like, so please don't tell me what I'm allowed to like.

Edit: Purity is the first mod to have earned a guaranteed $1k at least for its author. Gifts of Akatosh comes in second at a mere $534.91. (I can only track minimums/floors, so these mods have earned more than I'm reporting. It'd also be nice to know how authors of mods with multiple authors split their income amongst themselves, but I haven't found that anywhere.)

[Putnam]

The cave settlement is Shezrie's. If you think it's lazy, you're free to try making your own.

That's not an argument.

[Leyic]

The cave settlement is Shezrie's. If you think it's lazy, you're free to try making your own.

That's not an argument.

I wasn't arguing, I was opining on an opinion.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As stated above, the entire town (except for Old Town) is open. What this means is no loading screens. Walk into/out of shops, the tavern, the inn, your own home. You can look into shops through the windows, see their displays and then step right inside. Look out of your own house windows and see the town and all it's residents going about their daily business.
 
Popping out for a drink at the local tavern is no longer a 'loading screen' affair. Just walk right out of your door, across the town square and into the tavern! A whole different, unique atmosphere when everything is open and not separated into different cells.
 
There are four sections to this town; Inn Way, Undercroft, Rag End and Old Town:
 
Inn Way: This is the first section of the town and has an inn, a bakery, a forge, a small park and residents' houses.
 
Undercroft: This is the middle section of the town with a general store, a weapons and armor store, an alchemy store, a tavern and a very unique house that you can gain ownership of. (If you can find the owner who was last seen heading into Old Town.)
 
Rag End: This area is home to the lower class. The beggars, skooma addicts and rats. If you feel more at home here, there is a tiny home available.
 
Old Town: This is a large section of the town that is now uninhabitable (or is it?).
 
You can discover detailed information on the town's history.
 
Twenty new NPCs.
 
Labeled storage throughout the kitchens, bedrooms and storage areas.
 
Activate able lights in two of the player homes and an activate able oven.
 
A very unique apartment with secret entrance to Skyrim for those who wish to avoid the law.
 
All the shops have safes where they keep their money and valuable goods. You can either lockpick these or find the keys.

Flying Dice has a crazy definition of "lazy".

[Putnam]

Nope.

Dat lighting.

[Leyic]

Goodies, you have an opinion, too, just as we're all entitled. Doesn't invalidate that Shezrie thought it'd be a good idea to monetize through ValveThesda.

[Putnam]

Doesn't make it actually a good idea, nor does it make it not lazy.

[Leyic]

Funny thing is, I've yet to see a single modder speaking out in favor of this except as a way to stop their work being stolen or because they didn't know what it would entail.

Putnam, this is what I've been responding to the entire time. People are moving their work to Workshop for the purpose of monetizing it. If that's not being in favor of the idea, then what is it?

Edit: Relevant:

They wouldn't be Valve DMCAs. Valve has no actual legal standing to file those except for their own content. It seems as though some people are assuming that we signed over all rights to Valve and/or Bethesda. That didn't happen. We still retain copyright on the items which is why any DMCA claims would be coming from the individual authors, not from Valve or Bethesda.

As far as a statement from the UPP for the project, yes, I probably need to stop being lazy and go whip something official up about it.

(Emphasis mine.) Source (post #103). So there you have it, mod authors retain copyright, and thus creative control.

[Reudh]

You know what I think would be a 100% better plan?

Hiring the willing mod creators into the company itself as "DLC producers" with said DLC being an updated version of the mod.

That way you can have a real transition from modders to game developers, you can have all legal measures being taken care of by a single legal team, and you would have less public backlash, because you provide the positives (being able to seamlessly transition your hobby into a job) and you avoid the whole "paid mods" issue because people are already used to DLCs.

Why Bethesda/Steam didn't do that? Because it would actually take some effort?

While I've not seen it done for some time, Bioware / Atari released Neverwinter Nights: Kingmaker, which was essentially that. They (with permission) took the most popular modder's modules, polished them to a professional standard, bundled them in a large expansion called Kingmaker and sold them. I believe that the modders did receive compensation for it - how much, I do not remember. While it didn't do too well sales wise, this was two years after the base game's release, and after the Bioware expansions had come out to boot.

From the NWN Wiki:

These modules were created by, or on behalf of, BioWare designers and provide hours of entertainment with engrossing storylines, professional voice acting, enchanting musical scores, new in-game content, and much more. Together with the modules comprising the official campaigns, these are the only modules that are allowed to cost money.

Development of premium modules was halted at the request of Atari during the summer of 2006. Sales of the existing modules continued from BioWare's online store until the end of August, 2009, when Atari requested that they no longer be sold.

Regarding Valve's decision to monetise, there's not much I can say that has not already been dissected and argued by everyone else - but I will say this: as a hobbyist modder, I feel disincentivised to continue making my tiny little mods. (These are literally just practice mods I started a little while ago to get better at making mods for Skyrim or Fallout 3/NV. I eventually would love to work up to producing an engaging follower mod, as there are precious few out there.)

What would be the point when someone could potentially swipe anything I made after hours of work and put it up for sale? I would have little to no recourse short of slapping the "Forever Free" logo into the MCM menu for that mod and hoping that it was not removed by the hypothetical thief. I could ask politely, I suppose.

The thing is, that as Putnam has said referencing Wrye, that it tarnishes and degrades the "cathedral" style community, and as Wierd has said, it bars entry to hobbyists such as myself, even to the free platforms of the Nexus and similar.

[Arbinire]

I have been thinking on this part a bit and am starting to wonder what happens if mod makers decide to sell their mods outside of Steam?  Not the donations option that The Nexus offers, but full blown decided to sell on their own page and cut out the middle man, or even set up a market site to sell other mods, taking less of a percentage to host than Valve does, while they continue to pay Bethesda/Zenimax the 45%?  That opens up a whole new can of worms because if I understand there is a non-exclusivity clause(if that's the right word for it?).

[wierd]

The most likely answer, is that Bethesda will send the attack trained lawyers on them.

They sent the lawyers after the creator of minecraft for DARING to call a new game project he was working on "Scrolls" not that long ago, claiming the name was a trademark violation against the Elder Scrolls franchise, even though the games had NOTHING in common.

If Bethesda/Zenimax THINKS they could maybe, possibly, be losing money because of lack of enforcement of their IP rights, they *WILL* send the lawyers.

[TripJack]

if they had an agreement with the publisher to do so, nothing would happen

of course why would shitamax make a deal with some nobodies making a new site when they've already got a deal with the biggest vendor possible? even if they got a bigger cut from this new site it would be nothing compared to their total take from steam