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[Blaze]

So does chemotherapy.

[10ebbor10]

I don't think it is in this case. I mean, as far as I have found several of the core complaints about the system are downright incorrect or heavily misleading. At this point the vitriol has made the debate pretty much impossible.

[Blaze]

Please explain to us these downright incorrect and/or heavily misleading points; I'd be happy to run them through with you.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

I don't think it is in this case. I mean, as far as I have found several of the core complaints about the system are downright incorrect or heavily misleading. At this point the vitriol has made the debate pretty much impossible.

Indeed as Blaze has said, please elaborate. My position has remained unchanged on this matter and am happy to debate it with you.

[penguinofhonor]

.

[Flying Dice]

The most obvious example was that "Valve is taking down donation links!" thing that was a big focus of this controversy until everyone realized it was fake. News spreads through these things based on the amount of outrage is causes, not its factuality. It's like shitty journalism but with less accountability somehow.

"big focus" [citation needed]

[Bohandas]

Ah, so when a company does something unacceptable, we shouldn't use every available tool to push back! I understand now, but I still have one question: after we sit back and let game companies do whatever they want without protest, should we complain on tumblr about being oppressed?

As an internet mob signing petitions and harassing others, circlejerking so hard they've convinced themselves every tiny action on social media is an important part of their righteous battle,

Well, my answer to that is that we haven't tried yet, and we shall see

[Blaze]

The most obvious example was that "Valve is taking down donation links!" thing that was a big focus of this controversy until everyone realized it was fake. News spreads through these things based on the amount of outrage is causes, not its factuality. It's like shitty journalism but with less accountability somehow.

Then we'll concede this point and move on to the next one.

[10ebbor10]

Well, let's start :

- Valve is taking down donation links : Fabrication
- Valve takes 75% of mod revenue : Misleading, Bethesda chooses the ratio
- Valve is censoring discussion : Misleading/False. Mod owners chose to restrict discusion to paying users only to avoid brigading by people who disliked stuff on principle.
- Valve does nothing to police the system False. Mods have to be approved before becoming sellable. They merely rely on community policing for the first line of weeding out crap and obvious thefts.
- Valve is splitting the modding community in have's and have -not's. A pay what you want button exists, and can theoretically function as donation button. Thus restricting access is now solely the choice of the modder.

I think that's just about everything really.

[Bohandas]

Well, let's start :

- Valve is taking down donation links : Fabrication
- Valve takes 75% of mod revenue : Misleading, Bethesda chooses the ratio
- Valve is censoring discussion : Misleading/False. Mod owners chose to restrict discusion to paying users only to avoid brigading by people who disliked stuff on principle.
- Valve does nothing to police the system False. Mods have to be approved before becoming sellable. They merely rely on community policing for the first line of weeding out crap and obvious thefts.
- Valve is splitting the modding community in have's and have -not's. A pay what you want button exists, and can theoretically function as donation button. Thus restricting access is now solely the choice of the modder.

I think that's just about everything really.

None of these points was significant in the first place. The real issue is that it will attracts opportunists who will increase the amount of shit (though less of it may be UTTER shit due to oversight; it'll be passible shit, but still mostly shit) you have to sort through to find something good (a process which will furthermore no longer be automatically free), break interdependable mods, discourage collaboration, draw modders away from sites like Nexus, and worst of all will create a negative culture of greed

[10ebbor10]

Filtering paid mods out is easy, and for the other two points it seems to me that the violent kneejerk reaction has done far more damage to the community than the opportunity to get money ever did.

[Blaze]

- Valve takes 75% of mod revenue : Misleading, Bethesda chooses the ratio
So we should shift blame away from Valve and should blame Bethesda for it instead. Noted.
It still doesn't excuse this cash grab.

- Valve is taking down donation links : Fabrication
- Valve is censoring discussion : Misleading/False. Mod owners chose to restrict discusion to paying users only to avoid brigading by people who disliked stuff on principle.
Accounts have been tempbanned for making statements against it. However, my only source are those in the anti-paid mod groups, so I can neither prove this true or false.


- Valve does nothing to police the system False. Mods have to be approved before becoming sellable. They merely rely on community policing for the first line of weeding out stuff.
Why does the community have to weed out stuff when Valve/Bethesda are the ones making money off it?
Again, Cash Grab at the cost of the community.


- Valve is splitting the modding community in have's and have -not's. A pay what you want button exists. Thus restricting access is now solely the choice of the modder.
The users of the modding community says it does. The modders of the modding community says it does. Saying it does not is like saying those who both use and make mods knows less about how the modding community works than Valve does.

[Blaze]

Well, you do have 24 hours to get an automatic refund. So sifting through it all for something good is still free. Pay, hate, refund, done. Interdependable mods... just need to have a license agreement.

It takes a lot more than 24 hours for a mod to be considered "Bug Free", even if all that time is spent playing it.

The problems I have with the workshop is as follows:

1.  75% "fee" (And the fact that mods have to make at least $400 to get a payout at all).
2.  No system in place to stop stolen mods
3.  No system in place to limit low-effort mods (Even a filter will do).
4.  No guarantee that the mod will be patched if an update happens. (Steam's response is, if the modder does nothing it sucks to be you).
5.  24 hour return policy which does nothing to ensure that a mod is compatible. Errors may only become evident days after "purchase."
6.  Not even a minimum guarantee of Quality Assurance. At least developer-produced DLC is expected to have gone through QA. (Early access mods? Really?)

[Putnam]

Well, let's start :

- Valve is taking down donation links : Fabrication
- Valve takes 75% of mod revenue : Misleading, Bethesda chooses the ratio
- Valve is censoring discussion : Misleading/False. Mod owners chose to restrict discusion to paying users only to avoid brigading by people who disliked stuff on principle.
- Valve does nothing to police the system False. Mods have to be approved before becoming sellable. They merely rely on community policing for the first line of weeding out crap and obvious thefts.
- Valve is splitting the modding community in have's and have -not's. A pay what you want button exists, and can theoretically function as donation button. Thus restricting access is now solely the choice of the modder.

I think that's just about everything really.

None of these points was significant in the first place. The real issue is that it will attracts opportunists who will increase the amount of shit (though less of it may be UTTER shit due to oversight; it'll be passible shit, but still mostly shit) you have to sort through to find something good (a process which will furthermore no longer be automatically free), break interdependable mods, discourage collaboration, and worst of all will create a negative culture of greed

Well, you do have 24 hours to get an automatic refund. So sifting through it all for something good is still free. Pay, hate, refund, done. Interdependable mods... just need to have a license agreement.

It takes over 20 hours to start some mods, much less determine whether or not they actually work.

[10ebbor10]

Well, you do have 24 hours to get an automatic refund. So sifting through it all for something good is still free. Pay, hate, refund, done. Interdependable mods... just need to have a license agreement.

It takes a lot more than 24 hours for a mod to be considered "Bug Free", even if all that time is spent playing it.

The problems I have with the workshop is as follows:

1.  75% "fee" (And the fact that mods have to make at least $400 to get a payout at all).
2.  No system in place to stop stolen modsFalse
3.  No system in place to limit low-effort mods (Even a filter will do). False
4.  No guarantee that the mod will be patched if an update happens. (Steam's response is, if the modder does nothing it sucks to be you).
5.  24 hour return policy which does nothing to ensure that a mod is compatible. Errors may only become evident days after "purchase."
6.  Not even a minimum guarantee of Quality Assurance. At least developer-produced DLC is expected to have gone through QA. (Early access mods? Really?)False

Half your complaints are false. Mods have to be approved by the community, then by Bethesda, and a filter as well as rating systems exist. Low effort and stolen mods shouldn't make it through. I wonder how you managed to miss the moderation thing really, considering it's on a banner on all the potential paid mod pages.

It takes over 20 hours to start some mods, much less determine whether or not they actually work.

Chances are those won't make it into the shop.