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[Ghills]

MAJOR edit needed.

Learning disabilities (ex, ADHD or Down Syndrome) are not mental disorders (ex, bipolar or schizophrenia).  They are very fundamentally different, and question 22 needs to be split into 2 questions at the very least.

I strongly disagree, at least for ADHD. ADHD is one of the textbook mental disorders, in fact, and it fits pretty much every definition of a mental disorder you could think of. I did put ADHD as a separate entry from schizophrenia and mood disorders, and I think that is good enough. Can you convince me that ADHD is not an actual mental disorder and something else?

As for Down's syndrome... this might sound a bit callous but I doubt that anyone taking the survey has Down's syndrome. :/

(Standard Internet disclaimer, I am not picking a fight with anyone but rather looking to discuss things!)

Pro tip: If you're not looking to pick a fight, a good first step is to not insist on your point of view when someone else points out your ignorance. Being ignorant is not a problem, insisting on it is.

This stuff can get really personal for a lot of people who have to fight to be treated like human beings and not raving psychopaths.  If you think this is an exaggeration, I assure you it's not.  LD people get lumped in with the schizophrenics and bipolars way too often for either groups' comfort.  There's a long history of locking up anyone who was a bit different, regardless of whether they needed it, and also a long history of lumping all the 'crazies' together instead of identifying exact conditions and treating them. Both groups are pretty touchy about accuracy and respect, given all the horrible crap that has happened to them. 

There's a big gap between mental illnesses and learning disabilities.  It basically boils down to 'this group of conditions makes people irrational/hallucinate/etc' and 'this group of conditions makes people different', but also includes the mechanisms, the impact on reasoning, etc.  The only thing both groups of conditions have is the brain.

Mental disorder:  a mental or bodily condition marked primarily by sufficient disorganization of personality, mind, and emotions to seriously impair the normal psychological functioning of the individual—called also mental illness

Learning disability is a classification that includes several areas of functioning in which a person has difficulty learning in a typical manner, usually caused by an unknown factor or factors.

TL;DR  Learning disabilities describes a brain and personality that function in a healthy but nontypical way.  Mental disorder describes something going wrong in a way that causes irrationality.  To be politically incorrect about it, people do not like being called crazy simply because they are different, and people who suffer from mental illnesses would rather not get lumped in with retards, and both groups have good historical reasons for insisting on respect.

[4maskwolf]

Meh.

I have ADHD and I consider it a mental disorder.  It doesn't bother me to hear people call it that.  It does bother me, however, when it is done in an obviously derrogatory way.  It really depends on whether it's being discussed from a clinical perspective as opposed to an obviously judgemental perspective.

Still, the change would be nice, just so that the unfotunate implications aren't there and don't insult people who DO find that offensive (I know a couple of people who would find that highly offensive who have ADHD).

[Skyrunner]

@Ghills:
From what I see, your arguments are that

1. "Mental disorder" is a stigmatizing word.
2. A mental disorder is different from a learning disability because mental disorders present "...irrational/hallucinate/etc..." as symptoms while learning disabilities are simply "this group of conditions makes people different". Additionally, a mental disorder is "a mental or bodily condition marked primarily by sufficient disorganization of personality, mind, and emotions to seriously impair the normal psychological functioning of the individual" while a learning disability is "a classification that includes several areas of functioning in which a person has difficulty learning in a typical manner, usually caused by an unknown factor or factors".

I agree with point 1--mental disorder tends to imply something is wrong. But that is not a bad thing; most people with a mental disorder agree that they deviate from the norm. Whether that is something that should be fixed depends on person to person. Someone with mild Asperger's symptom would not think that they need medication, while someone with severe anything definitely would.

As for point two... I believe that your first set of definitions are backwards. The first definition describes a small set of disorders (schizophrenia, psycotic people, etc), while the second definition pretty much includes every single mental disorder, or even disease, known to mankind. One could argue that people with schizophrenia are simply more paranoid than people without, and that makes them different. A person with binge eating disorder merely has a different eating habit.

The second definitions seem much more typical.


Let's look at the DSM's foreword on mental disorders:

Despite these caveats, the definition of mental disorder that was included in DSM-III and DSM-III-R is presented here because it is as useful as any other available definition and has helped to guide decisions regarding which conditions on the boundary between normality and pathology should be included in DSM-IV. In DSM-IV, each of the mental disorders is conceptualized as a clinically significant behavioral or psychological syndrome or pattern that occurs in an individual and that is associated with present distress (e.g., a painful symptom) or disability (i.e., impairment in one or more important areas of functioning) or with a significantly increased risk of suffering death, pain, disability, or an important loss of freedom. In addition, this syndrome or pattern must not be merely an expectable and culturally sanctioned response to a particular event, for example, the death of a loved one. Whatever its original cause, it must currently be considered a manifestation of a behavioral, psychological, or biological dysfunction in the individual. Neither deviant behavior (e.g., political, religious, or sexual) nor conflicts that are primarily between the individual and society are mental disorders unless the deviance or conflict is a symptom of a dysfunction in the individual, as described above.

Emphasis added. The definition of a mental disorder that I am using is in accord with that of the DSM's. ADHD seems to fall square into the definition! It is a significant syndrome, with symptoms of attention deficit, that occurs in an individual, impairs their ability to function normally (in the case of ADHD, to concentrate on a single task), and presumably causes distress, too, as compared to their peers people with ADHD tend to fall behind on academic prowess.

Do you think that my (and DSM's) definition of mental disorder do not include ADHD?

[this part is not actually related to the debate about survey questions]

Pro tip: If you're not looking to pick a fight, a good first step is to not insist on your point of view when someone else points out your ignorance. Being ignorant is not a problem, insisting on it is.

But... I'm just stating my opinion. How is that picking a fight?

I strongly disagree, at least for ADHD. ADHD is one of the textbook mental disorders, in fact, and it fits pretty much every definition of a mental disorder you could think of. I did put ADHD as a separate entry from schizophrenia and mood disorders, and I think that is good enough. Can you convince me that ADHD is not an actual mental disorder and something else?

I can't really see where I'm insisting on my point of view. I am just saying that I disagree, with an implied "please inform me otherwise." Besides, you classify my viewpoint as ignorance, and even go so far to chastise me for not immediately and unquestioningly accepting your superior viewpoint, then call me ignorant again. Not only is that insulting, it also makes it seem that you are the one that is picking a fight. Besides, there's always the possibility that your viewpoint is not entirely correct. Also, I can't help but feel that you are being defensive. Did you get put on edge by my repeated use of the words "mental disorder?" :v

Finally, you are calling schizophrenic and bipolar people "raving psychopaths" and "crazies". Have you considered that maybe people that are schizophrenic don't want to be seen as raving psychopaths, and that people with bipolar disorder don't want to be called a "crazy" simply because their mood patterns are different to the average, neurotypical person? Maybe they've struggled for many many years trying to get rid of the stereotype that people with schizophrenia are unapologetic raving psychopaths, just like ADHD people have. I think you are being hypocritical by not wanting ADHD to be lumped with other disorders because ADHD!=craziness, then disparaging other mental disorders as being crazy.

One last thing: I have never grouped ADHD with "retards" and "raving psychopaths." Hell, I've been even more politically correct than the DSM has been by not grouping attention-deficit disorder into "Disorders usually first diagnosed in infancy, childhood, or adolescence," where number 1 is literally "mental retardation" and number 2 is "learning disorders" including ADHD. In the survey, attention-deficit disorder is its own option for both the expansive and simplified versions, and so is schizophrenia and bipolar disease. I can't help but feel that you're making a mountain out of a perceived insult molehill here.


edit: I've been notified that ADHD is not a learning disorder and is actually separately classified under "attention deficit disorders". This probably does not invalidate any of my points, but the reader beware.

[TempAcc]

Maybe I misunderstood something, but 2 seems entirely redundant if 1 is a calendar select

Very true--I don't know if Google Forms has a calendar select, though, so that's just in case.

Also, there's no option on 19 for people who are employed?

Also rather than Sex/Gender probably stick with PenguinofHonor's Cis Male/Cis Female/Trans Male/Trans Female/Other list imo.

I fixed 19 and combined sex/gender as PoH suggested.


So, if there's no other question ideas or things to edit, I'll create the form! Potentially by this weekend.

MAJOR edit needed.

Learning disabilities (ex, ADHD or Down Syndrome) are not mental disorders (ex, bipolar or schizophrenia).  They are very fundamentally different, and question 22 needs to be split into 2 questions at the very least.

I thought Downs Syndrome was a genetic disorder :v

[Orange Wizard]

Why don't we just use the word "disability" and be done with it? It's not exactly ambiguous.

And if people start getting offended by that, then we're drifting into the realm of needless pandering.

[Ghills]

@Ghills:
From what I see, your arguments are that
WALL OF TEXT

Since you've got the DSM, you can look up what it says about learning disabilities. It pretty clearly differentiates them from mental disorders afaik. http://www.ldworldwide.org/educators/strategies-for-successful-learning/1106-warm-demander-pedagogy-reaching-students-through-care-and-insistence lays it out my understanding pretty well.  Mental disorders are specific subset.

I did warn that I was going to be politically incorrect for that sentence, didn't I?   I meant that. It does accurately reflect the beliefs of a significant section of the population (or at least, a significant section of the population that I have encountered, including those in official positions), and was included to demonstrate why lumping multiple groups of conditions together is extremely problematic.

As for the mountain/molehill bit - no, I'm not.  That was the point of the history lesson.  There has been far too much lumping of various disorders together, which caused untold havoc in people's lives, delayed proper research and basically made everything worse for people with both learning disabilities and mental illnesses.  If you're going to do a survey, do it right. That includes paying attention to the history and common usage of the words used in the survey questions.   

What is this question really aimed at?  Do you want to do a survey of the mental health of the Bay12 community, are you interested in comparing official diagnoses vs likely missed diagnoses, something else?

We're probably having the classic 'tone doesn't translate through the Internet' problem.

[Ghills]

Why don't we just use the word "disability" and be done with it? It's not exactly ambiguous.

And if people start getting offended by that, then we're drifting into the realm of needless pandering.

How about "Have you ever been diagnosed with a condition for which psychiatric or psychological treatment is typically recommended?"  That covers all cases afaik and avoids classifying people.

[Ghills]

I thought Downs Syndrome was a genetic disorder :v

Both learning disabilities and mental illnesses can be caused by genetics, just like any other medical condition.  The first few terms are basically descriptors that classify conditions by how the symptoms present and impact the patient's life. 'Genetic condition' is how the condition came about, or the source of the condition.

It's like describing a car as red and made in Mexico.  One term (red) describes the car as it is, the other (from Mexico) states where the car came from.  In the same way, conditions can be both genetic and a learning disability (ex, autism, Down syndrome).

TL;DR  Problems involving brains are complex.

[Orange Wizard]

How about "Have you ever been diagnosed with a condition for which psychiatric or psychological treatment is typically recommended?"  That covers all cases afaik and avoids classifying people.

But that's really long-winded. And why is classifying people a problem, anyway? Isn't that literally the point of a census/survey, seeing what categories people fall in to?

Also, triplepost much.

[Tack]

The humble forward slash would fix all these problems.

Mental/Intellectual Disorder.
Bing.

Although geezus people are making a massive effort to make this questionnaire really PC.
Like, overly pandering.
Because I'm not actually spearheading this thing I thankfully have the freedom to say; it sucks. Stop it.

[Parsely]

When will this year's census start?

[penguinofhonor]

.

[a1s]

I also don't think the implication will necessarily come across, as there are plenty of people who still think transgender means neither male nor female, and they'll take it at face value.

That's because it does. Societal gender isn't nearly binary, and even physical sex isn't binary (through either nature and a liberal application of human craftsmanship). It looks like you want those people to be "other" (no comment), but there's no guarantee they'll take it that way.

[penguinofhonor]

.

[a1s]

[REDACTED]
You know what? I said I was sorry to be a bitch, and that was lie. So why don't I just shut up? You win this argument.