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Poll

Which game do you want?

4X
- 10 (28.6%)
RTS
- 6 (17.1%)
Fortress
- 3 (8.6%)
Idc what you say I want that one you can't do
- 5 (14.3%)
I'm voting for the lolz
- 11 (31.4%)

Total Members Voted: 35


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Author Topic: Creating a game  (Read 6842 times)

engineer13

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Re: Creating a game
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2015, 11:36:53 am »

Like I said I'm gonna be updating some more today (it's interesting how reaching these tiny goals gives a good feeling).  In this update I went ahead and added the functionality of having multiple pieces of armour on each side like in Aurora.  I also updated the AI to understand this (although it still works off of a very basic ruleset).  Here is the upload link:
http://www.megafileupload.com/1NY2/main.exe
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engineer13

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Re: Creating a game
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2015, 12:13:53 pm »

After plenty of debugging and trying to figure out why everything was suddenly messing up I finally got the new editor to work so that you can adjust the size of each ship.  I do believe this should be working bug free so here you go:
http://www.megafileupload.com/2E0m/main.exe

Now I'm gonna go take a break from programming and enjoy playing some games for a while.
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engineer13

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Re: Creating a game
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2015, 11:58:32 pm »

I ended up having to do go do some shopping today and a few other things so I didn't get to do any more programming today.  Also I just wanted to let you guys know real quick that on Thursday I will be leaving for a short trip and won't be back until late Sunday.
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Servant Corps

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Re: Creating a game
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2015, 01:35:59 pm »

I was inspired by those old flash defence games that used to be everywhere as well as those zombie survival strategy games that used to be popular. I can imagine a much deeper version of that, with a whole load of things to manage and work on.
The best part is that it's so easy to expand on - you can start with just balancing 'var.men, var.basehp, var.credits, var.alienattack' and expand to having tons of interesting things. The hardest part is balancing things, and making sure that it's interesting enough that it isn't just 'take turn, buy as many men and turrets as possible, take turn' as that quickly gets stale.

Good luck to both of you, and I'd be happy to help any way I can
Well, after thinking about it for a few days, I realize I can't really make it more interesting than "take turn, buy stuff, take turn". Even if I add more variables, all that's really going to happen is "take turn, run a lot of math calcuations to determine what stuff to buy, buy stuff, take turn".

Probably five years ago, I would find spreadsheet balancing to be fun, but I don't think it's fun for me right now, and it's probably useless trying to program something you don't really have passion for.

Of course, I could make it an idle game where the game just goes ahead and take turns and buy stuff for you, so you can just watch the base being defended...but then this means there's no actual "game" there, just an interactive movie.

At least your template is still there, Retropunk, ready to inspire those who want to be inspired. I also support the idea of breaking down a game into its competent parts, each of which seems easy to implement. This makes game development a lot less daunting, which may be why your post was inspiring.
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Retropunch

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Re: Creating a game
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2015, 02:34:19 pm »

Well, after thinking about it for a few days, I realize I can't really make it more interesting than "take turn, buy stuff, take turn". Even if I add more variables, all that's really going to happen is "take turn, run a lot of math calcuations to determine what stuff to buy, buy stuff, take turn".

Probably five years ago, I would find spreadsheet balancing to be fun, but I don't think it's fun for me right now, and it's probably useless trying to program something you don't really have passion for.

Of course, I could make it an idle game where the game just goes ahead and take turns and buy stuff for you, so you can just watch the base being defended...but then this means there's no actual "game" there, just an interactive movie.

But that's all any games are!! Think about it - the first example you gave is pretty much any turn based strategy and the second any real time strategy - all it is is the level of interaction the player has with the game and how often it's updated (once per frame in RTS, once per turn in TBS).

For instance, with the example I gave, perhaps once night falls it could play out on a tactical map. This would make it pretty much XCOM! Or it could be on a strategic level, with various areas to hold and many random events - this would make it basically Crusader Kings II! Or combine both!

If you don't feel happy with the graphical end of it (which is often where people trip up with game dev in my experience) then you could abstract these ideas a bit more. The tactical combat could be done through text or very sparse, geometric graphics (moving squares to show troops), and the strategic could be done through a similar system.

There's no limit, but if you start with a simple 'take turn, buy stuff, take turn' and it works well, then you can just keep building on it.

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With enough work and polish, it could have been a forgettable flash game on Kongregate.

engineer13

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Re: Creating a game
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2015, 12:13:18 am »

I haven't had enough time to do a lot of testing so I know there are still a couple bugs, but I added a couple new weapon named the Strong beam and the Machine gun (the Beam is just the normal weapon) and I think the in game help explains them well so have fun with this new update that slightly changes your potential strategies.

EDIT* I completely forgot to add the program link :P http://www.megafileupload.com/1OqJ/main.exe

EDIT* Also forgot to mention that I probably won't upload anything tomorrow because I leave at around 2:30 (I wake up kind of late) and the next step in the list is rather complicated so I don't want to start it just to leave it half finished and not come back for a few days.  Though I may do one or two of the sub steps I outlined and then upload that so I guess we will just see.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 12:18:16 am by engineer13 »
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engineer13

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Re: Creating a game
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2015, 10:01:04 pm »

I am now back from my trip.  It was pretty nice, but enough about me.  I am way too tired to do anything tonight, but tomorrow I should hopefully be able to get back on the programming wagon.  Also I am considering Gamedragons advice of starting a devlog soon.
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Servant Corps

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Re: Creating a game
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2015, 10:41:51 pm »

But that's all any games are!!

Right, but gaming has to be a bit more complex than that, otherwise we're all pretty much button-pressing addicts like poor old Stanley. You're right that it's important to break down a game mechanics into viable chunks, but when those chunks themselves are not interesting, then I start getting worried whether the enterprise itself is worthwhile.

Maybe gameplay can ultimately be boiled down to simple "balance variables endlessly and press 'end turn", and everything else in a game serves to distracts the player from the gameplay. Whether it is fluff, music, graphics, tactical maps, random events, interactivity, etc., everything in the game is to trick the player into thinking the gameplay is actually fun when it's really not. So the game is greater than the sum of its parts. This answer would imply that the game developer is really a cynical con artist though.

...Of course, I then proceed to violate my own advice and went ahead and started working on the Tower Defense MVP. No combat yet, but I did code in four factions (plus the player faction) and gave a brief bio about each. I also added in a primitive "add military units to fight enemy faction" system, so there's room for improvement. Not confident about releasing a program like engineer13 did.
***
Also engineer13, I'm actually shocked about how deep the game mechanics are (with four different sides of the ships that are all being tracked at once). I wasn't particularly engaged by the game itself, but I was engaged by how technically impressive it is. Good job.
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Araph

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Re: Creating a game
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2015, 11:30:11 pm »

You're right that it's important to break down a game mechanics into viable chunks, but when those chunks themselves are not interesting, then I start getting worried whether the enterprise itself is worthwhile.

The chunks alone without any detail usually aren't interesting. Break down Team Fortress 2, for example.

"Team A attempts to prevent Team B from completing objective" or "Team A shoot Team B".

The fun parts come from the details. Step it up to the next level:

"Team A attempts to prevent Team B from moving a bomb to the objective by giving players a choice of classes with a variety of weapons and abilities and pitting them against each other."

That sounds more like a game, despite the clinical description. Add in the fluff:

"A group of mercenaries working for the mega-corp 'Red' attempt to prevent an identical group of mercenaries (working for another mega-corp, 'Blu') from moving detonating a bomb in their base. Each of the nine mercenaries has a unique set of weapons and abilities that allow them to fulfill different roles in the team, all amidst a comedic and lightheartedly brutal war."

And that's without going into the specifics of each class (cloaking, headshots, ubercharging, sentries/teleporters/dispensers, rocketjumping, sticky traps, spychecking, airblasting, etc). Every game starts with a boring description. "Take turn, buy stuff, end turn" isn't that bad.


What is the player buying? Ships? Parts? Weapons? What differences do the ships have (size, speed, etc.)? What do the weapons do (think of the differences between bullets and projectiles in TF2: bullets are hitscan, projectiles travel over time. Both are weapons, but there's a very distinct mechanical difference between instead of just having numbers change)? Instead of upgrading from weak missile A to strong missile B, could there be guns? Lasers? Tractor beams? What are the effects of each type of weapon?

What variables are involved? Do the ships have limited power? Could a player be forced to choose between attacking without defenses (and subsequently being at the mercy of the RNG) or diverting power to their shields and increasing their odds of survival until a more opportune time?


Sorry for the rambling monologue, I'm just spitballing ideas. As a general rule, it's better to have a few simple (and very diverse) mechanics that interact with each other a lot rather than the endlessly increasing numbers that phrasing the idea as 'take turn, buy stuff, end turn' suggests. There's a lot you can do with that one starting point.
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engineer13

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Re: Creating a game
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2015, 12:26:23 am »

I have to say, some of the discussions you guys have on here are pretty awesome.

Also engineer13, I'm actually shocked about how deep the game mechanics are (with four different sides of the ships that are all being tracked at once). I wasn't particularly engaged by the game itself, but I was engaged by how technically impressive it is. Good job.
Well let me just say this.  First, thank you for your compliment on the mechanics.  It wasn't necessarily "difficult" to create it, but it also wasn't necessarily "easy" since it's still somewhat new territory.  Also when I programmed these mechanics I actually was just thinking how tiny it all seemed, but it's nice to know that despite my downtrodden thoughts it does have some complexity to it.  Second, I want to say I'm not surprised by its inability to engage you as a game.  It isn't at all close to complete, it has no graphics and it is built for nothing more than using mechanics.  All this combined means that I doubt much of anyone will enjoy it beyond its mechanics.  Third, thanks for just trying out the game.  I was mostly uploading it just for a bit of accountability and to give an idea of what it was I was making, but it's nice to know that people actually enjoy the direction it's headed in.
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dorf

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Re: Creating a game
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2015, 09:37:59 am »

[...] but it's nice to know that people actually enjoy the direction it's headed in.
This made me wonder whether we could define a Game-developer's hierarchy of needs.

1. get people to try out your game
2. get people to leave feedback
3. constant player base (as in, there is at least few people playing at once, at any given time)
4. critical success (your game is loved by many)
5. commercial success ("I wonder whether I can make a living with this?")
6. ???
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bahihs

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Re: Creating a game
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2015, 10:22:24 am »

You're right that it's important to break down a game mechanics into viable chunks, but when those chunks themselves are not interesting, then I start getting worried whether the enterprise itself is worthwhile.

The chunks alone without any detail usually aren't interesting. Break down Team Fortress 2, for example.

"Team A attempts to prevent Team B from completing objective" or "Team A shoot Team B".

The fun parts come from the details. Step it up to the next level:

"Team A attempts to prevent Team B from moving a bomb to the objective by giving players a choice of classes with a variety of weapons and abilities and pitting them against each other."

That sounds more like a game, despite the clinical description. Add in the fluff:

"A group of mercenaries working for the mega-corp 'Red' attempt to prevent an identical group of mercenaries (working for another mega-corp, 'Blu') from moving detonating a bomb in their base. Each of the nine mercenaries has a unique set of weapons and abilities that allow them to fulfill different roles in the team, all amidst a comedic and lightheartedly brutal war."

And that's without going into the specifics of each class (cloaking, headshots, ubercharging, sentries/teleporters/dispensers, rocketjumping, sticky traps, spychecking, airblasting, etc). Every game starts with a boring description. "Take turn, buy stuff, end turn" isn't that bad.


What is the player buying? Ships? Parts? Weapons? What differences do the ships have (size, speed, etc.)? What do the weapons do (think of the differences between bullets and projectiles in TF2: bullets are hitscan, projectiles travel over time. Both are weapons, but there's a very distinct mechanical difference between instead of just having numbers change)? Instead of upgrading from weak missile A to strong missile B, could there be guns? Lasers? Tractor beams? What are the effects of each type of weapon?

What variables are involved? Do the ships have limited power? Could a player be forced to choose between attacking without defenses (and subsequently being at the mercy of the RNG) or diverting power to their shields and increasing their odds of survival until a more opportune time?


Sorry for the rambling monologue, I'm just spitballing ideas. As a general rule, it's better to have a few simple (and very diverse) mechanics that interact with each other a lot rather than the endlessly increasing numbers that phrasing the idea as 'take turn, buy stuff, end turn' suggests. There's a lot you can do with that one starting point.

You need not limit such simplicity to video games. In reality (as in real life), it is a general rule of the universe that the simple breeds the complex. But lets not get too far in the realm of natural philosophy, and just stick to games :)

Consider, for example, the game of chess (a game I dearly love). The mechanics of chess are incredibly simple:

1. There is "space" (the board)
2. There is "material" (the pieces)
3. There is a winning objective (Mate the king)

We can get more specific as above:

1. There are 64 squares
2. There are 16 pieces, 6 unique, which have different ways of controlling space
3. Because each player starts with the same initial conditions, minor advances must be made toward the winning objective (control the center, win material, occupy weak squares etc.)

We can go deeper and describe how each piece moves and special moves (checks, captures, en passant, promoting pawns, castling etc.) And from there the game becomes so complex that it is still played today despite its 1500 year history.

Or take the game of Go, which is even older. There are literally only two rules:

1. You may place a stone on any of the boards intersection's
2. If stones are placed such that they surround a stone(s) of the opposing color (i.e the stones cover all intersections surrounding the stone(s)), that stone is put out of play
(there is a third rule forbidding the repetition of positions, but this need not be directly stated since it is somewhat self-evident)

And from that we have a game so incredibly complicated and universal, that it is theorized if aliens play a game, it is probably similar to Go.

The essence of innovation in game-making (in anything really), is to take the existing mechanics and mix and match them in new ways. The mechanics alone give you nothing, combination allows everything. Everything in the universe follows this rule, from the simplest elements of life to the latest tower defense game. The question is whether the masses will respond to your genius (you can be assured some minority always will, this forum is an example of that) or turn away. The problem then becomes selling the game people want to buy rather than making the game you want to play.

Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp
Or what's crowd-funding for?
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engineer13

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Re: Creating a game
« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2015, 10:29:41 pm »

Alright well I have been working with this a lot and unfortunately it still isn't where I want it.  It's supposed to be that each time you a side gets hit it turns closer and closer to red and the amount it gets closer by is proportional to the size of the ship.  Unfortunately something is going on that I just can't figure out and so it doesn't work very well at all, but it still is alright and can change color so here you go.  This is the program with added graphics:
http://www.megafileupload.com/2FSm/main.exe

EDIT* Tomorrow I will go ahead and work some more on the graphics because with the new area this is moving into they are going to be extremely important.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 10:32:36 pm by engineer13 »
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Servant Corps

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Re: Creating a game
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2015, 10:04:56 am »

Glorious update on the Tower Defense MVP.

It's been cancelled, due to personal reasons that I would rather not discuss on a public forum. I'm only making this post to bring closure, otherwise I might be complaining to myself about said personal reasons. Anyway, it's for the best.

I did mange to figure out how the Tower Defense MVP might be interesting, but it'd be twisted into of a "stock market simulator", rather than actual Tower Defense game. You are investing money into fighting enemy forces, and you get some income every turn based on your investment, since you're killing the enemy. However...you are slowly losing your initial investment every turn (since the enemy is always killing you). So you must decide how much you must reinvest back into the war. There would be one enemy faction which is low-risk, low-income, and another enemy faction which is high-risk, high-income, and the rest of the enemy factions are in-between.

Of course, once you come up with a rewarding stock portfolio analysis, the whole game gets broken easily, though I suppose it could be theoretically fixed by having random events that can impact the risk/reward ratio of the factions. In any event, though, I would rather address my personal reasons than to make a game. Real life should take priority.
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engineer13

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Re: Creating a game
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2015, 02:13:06 pm »

Glorious update on the Tower Defense MVP.

It's been cancelled, due to personal reasons that I would rather not discuss on a public forum.
Aww it sounded like it might be one of the few interesting tower defense games out there (no offense to people who like that genre it's just not my cup of tea).

Real life should take priority.
I completely agree
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