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[Radio Controlled]

It actually gets worse for the specialty crops required for vegetarian diets to

I will again claim the exact opposite of this until you provide proof. And since you made the claim, the burden of proof lies with you for the moment.

[Graknorke]

This is the source on that, so don't go mouthing off, http://epa.gov/climatechange/ghgemissions/gases/n2o.html.

That doesn't make the thing I said less true. In the USA they farm cattle intensively by feeding them with feed made from grain. That has to be grown, contributing to pollution figures.

[SirQuiamus]

Actually, these reports I'm finding right now are telling me that Agriculture (nitrogen fixation) is responsible for 74% of N2O produced by humans yearly and animal waste management accounts for only 5%, and that humans are responsible for 40% of N2O (a greenhouse gas) production worldwide yearly... That's kind of scary, maybe vegetarian is actually the WORST thing we can do...  Still looking.

Cattle farming in the USA uses feed produced from growing crops.

And one of the main feed crops is soy, for Christ's sake! The one-and-only, infamous "specialty crop required for vegetarian diet."

This is the source on that, so don't go mouthing off, http://epa.gov/climatechange/ghgemissions/gases/n2o.html.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand. We need one soy field to feed a bunch of humans, and we need several soy fields to feed a bunch of cattle, who will in turn feed a bunch of humans. This isn't some sort of high-horse argument – it's just a matter of fact. 

[Radio Controlled]

This is the source on that, so don't go mouthing off, http://epa.gov/climatechange/ghgemissions/gases/n2o.html.

That doesn't make the thing I said less true. In the USA they farm cattle intensively by feeding them with feed made from grain. That has to be grown, contributing to pollution figures.

Indeed, as was stated a couple dozen replies ago, animals need crops grown to feed them. Feeding people with these (or equivalent) crops directly is simply more efficient. This is a very basic fact you won't get around. I'm kinda surprised you didn't jump on what I said earlier, since that is what is most often used as a counterargument to this.

[Graknorke]

one-and-only

Yes, there is in fact a secret "vitamin soy" that human beings need to live.

[Neonivek]

It actually gets worse for the specialty crops required for vegetarian diets to

I will again claim the exact opposite of this until you provide proof. And since you made the claim, the burden of proof lies with you for the moment.

Do you know anything of this subject?

[Radio Controlled]

It actually gets worse for the specialty crops required for vegetarian diets to

I will again claim the exact opposite of this until you provide proof. And since you made the claim, the burden of proof lies with you for the moment.

Do you know anything of this subject?

How is that relevant? Whether I say no or yes doesn't change the arguments or proof/sources I provide.

But for the record, I am doing a masters in biochemistry.

[Angle]

I hate to be that guy, but you know this conversation is of very little use, right? I mean, sure, if our society as a whole adopted one of your solutions, it would probably benefit, and if it adopted the right one, it would benefit a great deal. But you aren't going to make that happen just by arguing about it here. You'll talk yourselves into the ground and make some tiny increment of progress - like maybe five or ten people changing their minds, out of the several billion that need to. It's just not enough. That won't change anything in time for it to matter.

That's why I keep harping on about Agora even though nobody seems to listen or care, because it could allow you to have that same conversation on a massive scale, drawing on the knowledge and creativity of Hundreds or Thousands of peoples minds, and have the opportunity to change those same i]Hundreds[/i] or Thousands of minds. But it doesn't exist yet. I'm working on making it exist, but I just can't do so alone. I need help. I know most of you aren't programmers, but I'm sure you could still help if you put your minds to it. Perhaps you could help me design the website. Perhaps you could help me run a kickstarter. Perhaps you can show me how I'm going about everything wrong and running around like a headless chicken, and I'd be better off if I did things this other way instead.

And yes, I know it's arrogant and obnoxious to go and say "You should quit what you're doing and help me on my thing instead", but I really do believe that, and I think it's important enough to say anyway. You're free to disagree with me and argue otherwise.

edit- Hell, if you want to start your own projects, go ahead - I just want to point out that having a single small argument here just won't change much, and you should try and aim for bigger impact.

[Neonivek]

Actually I found it interesting that Chickens are good for the environment.

[Radio Controlled]

Sorry angle, for not helping you out more. I guess the smug nerdgasm I get from arguing on the internet is more rewarding right now than helping your project. I'll try to see if I can't get into it later, but for now I think we can continue the discussion. Probably nothing will come of it, but once you start like that, you might as well stop visiting bay12 on a regular basis. If nothing else, this is all rather entertaining, and a chance to learn something new.

[Angle]

Yeah, just make sure that's not ALL you do.

[Frumple]

edit- Hell, if you want to start your own projects, go ahead - I just want to point out that having a single small argument here just won't change much, and you should try and aim for bigger impact.

Anything is better than nothing. Every small bit helps. Perfect is enemy of good. Small changes lead to big ones. Small discussions lead to large ones. Maximizing impact is not a necessary or necessarily desirable goal. Improvement, or at least maintenance of a minimal good, is the goal.

Telling people they should stop trying to improve themselves because it's not a big enough impact is a pretty bloody toxic attitude, even if the intent is to prod them to do more.

[Radio Controlled]

Yeah, just make sure that's not ALL you do.

Who said it was?
*Darth Vader voice* "You assume too much."

[Angle]

edit- Hell, if you want to start your own projects, go ahead - I just want to point out that having a single small argument here just won't change much, and you should try and aim for bigger impact.

Anything is better than nothing. Every small bit helps. Perfect is enemy of good. Small changes lead to big ones. Small discussions lead to large ones. Maximizing impact is not a necessary or necessarily desirable goal. Improvement, or at least maintenance of a minimal good, is the goal.

Telling people they should stop trying to improve themselves because it's not a big enough impact is a pretty bloody toxic attitude, even if the intent is to prod them to do more.

Sure, but I feel like I'm the guy trying to build a flood wall in order to hold off an upcoming tsunami, and everyone else is lifting weights. That's great and all guys, but is this really the time? Hell, for that matter, wouldn't you get as much or more exercise helping me build the bloody wall?

[Angle]

Sorry, I had't meant to stall the conversation. Anyway,  what about this soylent stuff? I bet we could figure out how to mass produce it pretty economically.