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[RedKing]

Spoiler: My reaction to this entire thread. (click to show/hide)

[LordBucket]

This has already been tested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyl97TG8jbA

Death battle broke their own rules in that video. They've always asserted that combatants can receive no help, but they used datapoints of superman receiving help. In particular the planet pushing sequence, you see all that green in the image? That's green lantern helping him. You know, GreenLantern..the guy who can supposedly do "anything" if he can imagine it? You can't just divide the required forces in half and assume that Supes did that much. And the "200 quintillion push" is from All Star Superman, in which Lex Luthor doses him with so much solar radiation that it kills him, but he's temporarily given extremely boosted power before he dies. They used another datapoint that was from a story where Superman had left earth and jut hung out inside the sun for a couple year powering up, and acted like that was his normal power level.

Meanwhile, they did a lot of fairly silly things on the Goku side. Having Goku use the Nyoibo. Youknow, the weapon he ued when he was a little kid? And they used datapoints for his speed and strength that were only a third of the way through Dragonball Z.

Can you imagine if they'd had Goku meditated and powering up for years, then was additionally powered up by the Supreme Kaio, and then get help from Maajin Buu too, and then they compared that to Superman when he was a a teenager. Remember in Superman 1 when he kicked the football? Let's use that to determine how hard he can hit.

That's basically what Deathbattle did.

The real deal killer though is that they applied totally inconsistent rules to the two fighters. They concluded that they were both superluminal speedsters, but because superman was superluminal he could generate infinite mass and survive the forces of being superluminal, and could therefore squish Goku. Even though Goku had that same ability. The "infinite mass punch" maneuver that Superman used at the end of that video isn't a special "Superman" move. It's a general ability attributed to the Speed Force, and anyone who is superluminal is capable of it. I think Flash was the first one do it. If Goku is superluminal presumably the same rules would apply to him. But they gave it to Superman only for who knows what reason.

There were lots of mistakes and inconsistencies.

Can Goku beat Superman? Well, it depends. It's always depended. On which versions of Goku and which versions of Superman we're talking about. Silver Age Superman beats pretty much everything, because he's a Jesus expy. And maybe Superman does beat Goku. Or maybe he doesn't. But whether or not he does, that particular Deathbattle video does not demonstrate it.

[Radio Controlled]

Yeah, let's all first try to decide on 'which' superman and goku to use, otherwise there is no answering this.

[LordBucket]

Yeah, let's all first try to decide on 'which' superman and goku to use, otherwise there is no answering this.

I think mid-Z Goku beats most of the more well known depictions of Superman. Justice League, JLU, Smallville, etc. The movies are debatable. But usually when these discussion are held, people like to bring up obscure depictions that I've never actually seen outside of a Goku vs. Superman debate. When you have to bring up obscure comic #567854Q from an interation that 99% of people have never heard of to show a feat that contradicts the vast majority of what he's shown to be capable of in other depictions...I just feel like that kind of thing is an outlier that can be reasonably dismissed. Just like I would tend to dimiss depictions where he can't fly, or can't survive in space without a spacesuit, or is defeated by ordinary unpowered humans.

[Andres]

Yeah, let's all first try to decide on 'which' superman and goku to use, otherwise there is no answering this.

I'm not sure which Superman we should use, but we should definitely use SSG Goku.

Can someone tell me why people call Super Saiyan SSJ? There's no 'J' in there.

[Neonivek]

Superman is just the master of having battles make him look at lot weaker than he is.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

Can someone tell me why people call Super Saiyan SSJ? There's no 'J' in there.

While it's Saiyan in English, it's Saiyajin in Japan.  Probably kept it abbreviated using the Japanese spelling, as someone on a censorship board was worried about it being linked to the German SS.

Spoiler: He also destroys suns casually when he's in a bad mood. (click to show/hide)

Beerus: What now?

Beerus: Would you guys keep it down…

Goku: L… Lord Beerus

Beerus: I can’t sleep!

Goku: Woah…

Goku: If..if that hit us dead on, we would be goners!!

Whis: He’s always like this when he’s sleepy.

Whis: It was extremely dark after he destroyed those two suns there.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

...The hell?  Why is Gohan mentioning training in his Super Saiyan state?  His power up by Old Kai negated the need for it by putting all the power in his regular form, causing Super Saiyan transformation to give him nothing.

This has already been tested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyl97TG8jbA

Was this made before or after DC rebooted their universe?  Again.

[Vector]

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[LordBucket]

we should definitely use SSG Goku.

I'd propose sticking to Z. It's probably the most well known.

I'm not sure which Superman we should use

My thoughts, assuming Goku from the end of Dragonball Z:

Adventures of Superman, Superman: Even Krillan could beat him.

Justice League Superman: Goku wins, Superman gives a 'world of cardboard speech' and fights more seriously, punches Goku through a couple buildings. Goku, accustomed to being smashed through mountains and repelling planet-bursting attacks, is unphased by this and beats him anyway.

Christopher Reeves Superman: Goku wins if we judge based solely on fighting capabilty, strength, durability, etc. But this version of Superman has some Silver Age trump cards that enable him to win without fighting, like reversing time, being able to selectively erase memories, etc.

Smallville Superman: Goku wins. Pushing Apokalips away from earth is impressive, but it's the standard "ignore mass"/"contact telekinesis" ability that Superman has in most media. If he were actually applying enough force to move the planetoid to move it away from earth, he would simply have poked a hole and flown through it rather than move the whole thing. Even if he were distributing the force over much greater surface are than just his hands, it would still have crushed in on itself in the process. It didn't. It never does. This is one of Superman's signature abilities, moving around planes, buildings, planets, etc. without causing any damage to them in the process. But not damaging a thing isn't the greatest combat skill.

Superman returns/Man of Steel: I don't remember many notable feats from these movies besides the bullet to the eye scene. Might need to watch them again, but I think Goku still wins.

Comic books superman: Superman sneezes and all the planets in the solar system that Goku is in disintegrate. Goku dies and takes the opportunity to catch up with the North Kaio, meets up with Piccolo and Bulma, summons the dragon and wishes all the planets back. Annoyed by this, Superman goes back in time and reverts the change. Unable to make the same wish a second time, but not very inconvenienced by being dead, Goku tracks down Superman and challenges him to a fair fight. Superman decides that Goku is so weak that for the fight to be fair, he can't fight Goku himself. So he conjures up a Super midget from his hand to fight on his behalf. That fight takes 15 episodes, but Superman gets bored watching and uses his Super Kiss ability to make Bulma fall in lust with him to prevent the Z-team from locating the dragonballs again. Bulma falls for Superman hard, and chases him to the end of the galaxy. At least until he gets annoyed and uses his Super Mind Control to make her go away. Meanwhile, Goku has finally defeatedthe Super midget, Krillan tosses him a senzu bean, leaving him replenished but his shirt is still torn. After tracking down Superman yet again. Superman conjures up another Super Midget but Goku, 3 times as strong as he was during the first encounter,is now able to effortlessly beat it. Superman, annoyed by this, Superman uses his Super Fast Thinking to realize that this will keep going on forever if he doesn't put a stop to it. So he uses his Super Domestic Skills power to cook up some delicious ramen, feeds it to Goku who then forgives him for destroying the solar system and killing billions of people and then promptly forgets about the whole thing. Not content with this, the writer for Superman makes up a Super Make Goku Lose ability, and therefore Goku loses.

But yeah, set aside the comics and look at almost any other medium Superman has appeared in, Goku wins.

[Neonivek]

Justice League Superman

Uhhhhhh... This show suffers a LOT from not depicting Superman's strength. They outright state his physical strength in the show... and yeah he can push around the earth.

" Goku, accustomed to being smashed through mountains and repelling planet-bursting attacks, is unphased by this and beats him anyway."

Uhhh... not really

The Garlic Gun and Death Ball cannot "Burst" the planet through power. They use other methods to destroy planets.

[wierd]

nitpicks about superluminal beings fighting...

1) doing this in ANY kind of atmosphere is... "LOL!!" in a box.  Can you say deadly hard X-rays on massive scales? I knew you could. Despite this, Goku uses "Instant transmission" several times in DBZ, while on the surface of the earth. Hooray for not understanding physics, Taoe entertainment.

2) Due to the above, this means both Goku and Superman should be able to withstand even the most absurd kinds of hard energy being thrown at them, and at insane levels to boot.  Smashing through atmospheric gas at light speed would cause spontaneous fusion/fission events with the air atoms they were plowing through, with precisely ZERO shielding.  They might as well have the biggest russian nuclear device ever built and tested dropped on them.  At this point, the "getting punched" thing is just downright laughable, even with the "Infinite mass" rhetoric behind it.  Clearly both are made from imaginarium, because no substance could do this and survive like they clearly can.

[LordBucket]

Uhhhhhh... This show suffers a LOT from not depicting Superman's strength.

Uhhh... not really

I seem to remember tat the last time we had this thread, you and I danced for pages of me going into great detail and extensively citing sources, while you kept responding with "no, you're wrong. Superman is stronger than that, they just don't show it."

I'm not going to do that again. If you want to have a discussion, you need to say more than just "uhhh, no."

[LordBucket]

nitpicks about superluminal beings fighting...

1) doing this in ANY kind of atmosphere is... "LOL!!" in a box.  Can you say deadly hard X-rays on massive scales? I knew you could. Despite this, Goku uses "Instant transmission" several times in DBZ, while on the surface of the earth. Hooray for not understanding physics

Granted, both characters break physics. But what exactly is your objection to Instant Transmission? It's teleportation, not travel greater than c.

[Yoink]

Superman would wipe the floor with the pyjama-wearing little twerp.
Real heroes wear spandex.

[Vector]

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