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[Persus13]

I like RC's idea of giving people who don't stack +2s an extra 5 points.

I also think Complete Novice should be -1, Hazard at -2, and then something along the lines of Some Expertise to be 0, with everyone automatically starting at -1, as that was something I really liked about the original system was the emphasis that you initially sucked unless you put in some points.

Also, I just changed my respect.

[syvarris]

In short, I dislike both Radio's and Nik's ideas- not because they're bad, they actually solve the problem well, but because they add exceptions.  It makes the system more complex, and seeing how many people already have trouble with it... that isn't good.

That might not be an issue, because we can just have all newbies walked through the design when they create their character, and forget about it afterwards.  I'd think that would be bad, but I don't really know.

@Persus

Actually, the old system was more like Sky's idea.  Stats, for instance, had enough points that you could have no bonus less than zero, and one bonus of +1/3.  Skills weren't to that point, but you could still be at +0 in most skills at the beginning.

This is another reason I like Sky's idea of providing one levelup at the beginning; It's closer to the original power level.

[Parisbre56]

Did this thing to help with things: http://parisbre56-phpexperiment.rhcloud.com/character_creation.html
Basically a way to make checking your character sheets for errors easier.

As always, suggestions or bug reports are welcome.

Source code here: https://github.com/parisbre56/bay12test/blob/master/character_creation.html

[Tavik Toth]

I'm still very much unsure how I should respec. Halp?

[Parisbre56]

I'm still very much unsure how I should respec. Halp?

You've been on 5 missions. The AP mission counts as two so that means it's like you've been on 6 missions. You also participated in the boarding action and the timeskip that give half a levelup each.

That means you get 30 points to spend on stats and 30 points to spend on skills. Spend them however you like. You also have 10 points that you can spend either on stats or skills EDIT: or a combination of the two. Spend them however you like. That is all.

Is there anything more specific you are confused about?

[NAV]

As outlined in IRC, the two main problems I see with it is that these are 'extra' points and they would needlessly complicate checking for correct levelling. 'Extra' means that at start even an absolutely-rounded all-0 character can have an extra +1 with no penalties whatsoever, which is probably against the original idea.

Now, as I stipulated, those 5 points at +2vs.+1+1 comparison (or at +2+1 vs. +1+1+1 comparison in case of proposed change) are not 'net gain' for a focused-build character; they are 'loss' for diversified-build character. This loss in intrinsic to the system; the original system balances around gaining more and more bonuses and penalizes for spreading out. IF it were reworked to suit the +2 cap, by charging exactly -1 for every 0->+1 and -2 for every +1->+2 it would be perfectly balanced around the levelling system and allow for any amount of bonuses and penalties... which might not have been desired by creator.
By introducing the single compromise of the proposed change, however, we shift the balance slightly toward two-stat-capable characters, lessen the general trouble of making diversified characters in general and keep most of the original balance and intention in place. (Which, yes, includes the generated character being more and more point-inefficient the further you specialise one.)

Also, I believe that giving points outright is a hard counter to the problem, and external one at that; I hope that by using soft counter internal to the system in question the desired balance could be achieved in a more natural and fruitful way.

I fully like and support this idea.

[Doomblade187]

As outlined in IRC, the two main problems I see with it is that these are 'extra' points and they would needlessly complicate checking for correct levelling. 'Extra' means that at start even an absolutely-rounded all-0 character can have an extra +1 with no penalties whatsoever, which is probably against the original idea.

Now, as I stipulated, those 5 points at +2vs.+1+1 comparison (or at +2+1 vs. +1+1+1 comparison in case of proposed change) are not 'net gain' for a focused-build character; they are 'loss' for diversified-build character. This loss in intrinsic to the system; the original system balances around gaining more and more bonuses and penalizes for spreading out. IF it were reworked to suit the +2 cap, by charging exactly -1 for every 0->+1 and -2 for every +1->+2 it would be perfectly balanced around the levelling system and allow for any amount of bonuses and penalties... which might not have been desired by creator.
By introducing the single compromise of the proposed change, however, we shift the balance slightly toward two-stat-capable characters, lessen the general trouble of making diversified characters in general and keep most of the original balance and intention in place. (Which, yes, includes the generated character being more and more point-inefficient the further you specialise one.)

Also, I believe that giving points outright is a hard counter to the problem, and external one at that; I hope that by using soft counter internal to the system in question the desired balance could be achieved in a more natural and fruitful way.

I fully like and support this idea.

I agree.

[Corsair]

Here's Konrad, base points is on the left, exoskeleton in the middle on the stat section then the mission points on the right total on the far right

Spoiler: Konrad Curtz (click to show/hide)

Konrad Curtz

       vExo vPoints
Str: 0 + 5 +5      = 10 +2
Dex: 0 + 0 +5      =  5 +1
End: 5 + 5 +0      = 10 +2
Cha:-5 + 0 +0      = -5 -1
Int: 0 + 0 +0      =  0 +0
Will:0 + 0 +0      =  0 +0
Fate:0 + 0 +0      =  0 +0


Intuition:0 = 0
Handiwork:5 = 5 (+1)
Conventional Weapons:5 + 5 = 10 (+2)
Unconventional Weapons:0 = 0 (+0)
Exotic weapons:-10 = -10 (-2)
Auxiliary Systems:5 + 5 = 10 (+2)   
Medical Tech:0 (+0)
General Knowledge:-5 = -5 (-1)

[Xantalos]

Did this thing to help with things: http://parisbre56-phpexperiment.rhcloud.com/character_creation.html
Basically a way to make checking your character sheets for errors easier.

As always, suggestions or bug reports are welcome.

Source code here: https://github.com/parisbre56/bay12test/blob/master/character_creation.html

Uh.
What's that do?

[Nikitian]

Did this thing to help with things: http://parisbre56-phpexperiment.rhcloud.com/character_creation.html
Basically a way to make checking your character sheets for errors easier.

As always, suggestions or bug reports are welcome.

Source code here: https://github.com/parisbre56/bay12test/blob/master/character_creation.html

For some reason, it does not work for Intelligence stat for me: it does count the assigned points towards the total points spent/number of Mission level-ups, as well as number of positive/negative levels, but neither "Total Level" of Int changes, nor "Left for next level" - both tried through "Initial Level" input and through "Points spent".

@Xan It's just an automated charsheet calculator.

[Kriellya]

Did this thing to help with things: http://parisbre56-phpexperiment.rhcloud.com/character_creation.html
Basically a way to make checking your character sheets for errors easier.

As always, suggestions or bug reports are welcome.

Source code here: https://github.com/parisbre56/bay12test/blob/master/character_creation.html

For some reason, it does not work for Intelligence stat for me: it does count the assigned points towards the total points spent/number of Mission level-ups, as well as number of positive/negative levels, but neither "Total Level" of Int changes, nor "Left for next level" - both tried through "Initial Level" input and through "Points spent".

@Xan It's just an automated charsheet calculator.

Mmm, I see that bug. Weird. Of all the stats to *break*
I'll see if I can fix it before I go to bed.

Edit: Bug squashed. The program is now intelligent.

[Radio Controlled]

Hmm. After mulling over, I think that if we do really want a new rule to prevent the slight point difference, while necessarily staying within the new system as-is, then the idea of an extra -1 wouldn't be that bad. Though I do wonder if it wouldn't be easier to go to a different system that's more like the old one, where you just pick 1 1+/-1 and get 10 or 15 points to invest, while 0 in a stat giving -1. Kinda seems much easier to balance than the current one, but it doesn't have that 'increasing bonus has faster increasing malus' thing.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Hmm. After mulling over, I think that if we do really want a new rule to prevent the slight point difference, while necessarily staying within the new system as-is, then the idea of an extra -1 wouldn't be that bad. Though I do wonder if it wouldn't be easier to go to a different system that's more like the old one, where you just pick 1 1+/-1 and get 10 or 15 points to invest, while 0 in a stat giving -1. Kinda seems much easier to balance than the current one, but it doesn't have that 'increasing bonus has faster increasing malus' thing.

How about a pool of starting points, that gets decreased with each application of +1/-1? I.e. you have 20 points to start, and each application uses up 5 points. This limits you to four +1/-1 operations per category. With the +2/-2 limit, what perturbations would there be?

[Parisbre56]

@Kriellya: Thanks. Missed that. As well as some silly spelling mistakes. I should avoid writing at 6 in the morning...

I've added a notice to the Stats and Skills page that it is obsolete and that it should be redone at some point.

I've redone my character attributes, just posting them here for posterity. I tried to refrain from minmaxing and tried sticking as close to my previous character as possible: A jack of all trades which is good at shooting and bad at medicine.

Spoiler: Initial levels (click to show/hide)

I take no bonus levels in any stat.
Strength: 0
Dexterity: 0
Endurance: 0
Charisma: 0
Intelligence: 0
Willpower: 0
Fate: 0

I take a negative in medical for a positive in conventional, just like my original character.
Intuition:0
Handiwork:0
Conventional:1
Unconventional:0
Exotic:0
Auxiliary:0
Medical:-1
Gen. Knowledge:0

Spoiler: After levelups (click to show/hide)

I've got a total of 6 missions. One of them is the AP so it's like I have 7 missions. I've participated in the Hephaestus timeskip and the space battle.
I have a total of 35 points for stats, 35 for skills and 10 for anything I want.

I use all ten extra points here for a total of 35+10=45 points.
Strength: 0
Dexterity: 2 (15p)
Endurance: 0
Charisma: 2 (15p)
Intelligence: 0
Willpower: 2 (15p)
Fate: 0

Intuition:0
Handiwork:0
Conventional:2(10p+1i)
Unconventional:1(5p)
Exotic:2(15p)
Auxiliary:1(5p)
Medical:-1
Gen. Knowledge:0

I considered dumping medical completely for an extra point in handiwork but then I realized I might need medical for some of the experiments I want to do.
Looks like I misjudged the new system. It's actually very good for jacks of all trades like me, since I can soon be experienced in everything.

And, just for fun, what I would do if I wanted to minmax:

Spoiler: Min Maxwood: Sniper Elite (click to show/hide)

Shadow Walker Elite could also work. Or sniper with psionics from XCOM.

We've got dexterity so that I can always dodge, hit and take the initiative, some charisma for mind control and willpower for mind control. 0 in fate and endurance means that I have a chance to survive if I get in a bad spot,  like an overload. Intelligence is not really needed unless piecewise makes me roll for a vantage point and a battlesuit means that as long as I refrain from punching things (which snipers should avoid in the first place), I should be fine in terms of strength needed to lift weapons and be able to avoid rolls for climbing things. Unless piecewise makes me roll for recoil or something.
Strength:-1
Dexterity:3(15p+2i)
Endurance:0
Charisma:1(5p)
Intelligence:-2
Willlpower:2(15p)
Fate:0

We've got master conventional for guaranteed hits, good exotic for mind control that can create meat shields and distractions and control sods, 0 in intuition in case I need to make a blind shot, 0 in auxilliary in case I need rockets to run away or to get through a door without walking through it or to find my mark through cameras. Handiwork is not needed since I do not need to craft equipment or make repairs. Unconventional has a -1 for the rare case I need it to use bombs and gen.knowledge has a -1 for the rare case I need it to get to a good vantage point or avoid detection.
Intuition:0
Handiwork:-2
Conventional:4(35p+2i)
Unconventional:-1
Exotic:2(10p+1i)
Auxiliary:0
Medical:-2
Gen. Knowledge:-1

Thoughts about the new system

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It generally feels like it pushes everyone to be overall more balanced. Someone who spends 5 points in handiwork for example stops being a hazard to everyone around them when building prototype weapons, since unstressed rolls can no longer be 1 or 6. And since it doesn't give any inherent -1s to rolls, it means that people with 0 levels in something are similar to people with 1 in the old system.

But it is not restrictive. As shown with my minmaxer, someone who focuses on one or two things (ie a purely combat based character) can become a specialist in 3 missions and a master in 7. Now that might seem like a lot, but if you look at the rolls, it is
Professional: [2,2,3,4,5,5], meaning 50% chance of success, 16% chance of partial success and 33% chance of failure.
Specialist: [2,3,4,5,5,5], meaning over 66% chance of sucess
Master: [5,5,5,5,5,5], meaning you cannot fail, similar to getting a perfect decompensator and a +3 in the old system.
Not only that, but you don't have to spend money on buying decompensators, meaning that you can spend it on equipment that will keep you alive and help you complete your mission.

The only point where this system is slightly worse than the old one is when considering a purely small arms combat based character, like an Exo user with a microwave amp.
Assuming that exo user does very well in the missions he is in and racks a lot of tokens that he doesn't spend anywhere (which is a really hard thing) he could become a specialist in 2 missions (but at the cost of 20 tokens for a decomp, tokens that cannot be spent elsewhere) and a master in 5.
And at that point the -1 (and a -2 in speech probably) he has in everything else (except perhaps 2 skills and any stat besides willpower he's put points in) means that if he tries to do anything besides amp usage or if he is put in danger by a teammate he has a very high chance of ending up dead.
And not only that, with the cost of 20 tokens for the decompensator it means that he'll have less equipment or be a hazard to teammates until he gets one.

Compared that to the new system that allows someone to become a specialist and a master in roughly the same number of missions AND not have to spend 20 tokens allowing for better equipment for more versatility and survivability, we can see that the new system is much much better.

So I do not think the new system needs fixing since it is much much better than the old one.

EDIT: Actually, another downside of the new system is that you can't get bonuses to stats. With the old system, when you had a +1 in something like will or dexterity, it meant that in certain situations you had a better chance at coming out alive than in this system, where you need a +2 for a similar but somewhat better effect. But the fact that you get no negatives helps with that. And the fact that you only need 3 missions to get a +2, same as a +1 in the old system. And the fact that you can dump something you are unlikely to use, like Strength and Charisma.

So again, I think the new system is overall better and more balanced in that regard, even though it is worse in certain corner cases.

[Comrade P.]

Guys, I haven't quite followed your discussion. Are there any PW/council-approved changes to initial respec order?