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Author Topic: Gene-Engineering  (Read 9013 times)

Andres

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Re: Gene-Engineering
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2015, 03:32:11 am »

I'm getting a tail.
If you're talking about a prehensile, Saiyan-like tail then sure. Same here. If you're talking about something as useless like a dog or cat tail then I have no choice but to consider you as inferior to me. Honestly, the downsides in that case would outweigh the singular bonus (balance) it gives. A few downsides that come to mind include discomfort while sitting, new clothes being required (not really that terrible, actually), and extra hygiene requirements.

I'm not sure your tax would work as well as you think.
How come?

Again, the "Best" solution is to allow people to die from genetic diseases, without trying to intervene.

Allowing little timmy to die today, can save the world tomorrow.
I believe you're operating on the assumption that all gene-engineering results in the passing-down of those altered genes. This isn't actually the case, universally, and people with certain genetic diseases can be cured of them without the cure automatically being passed down to their offspring.

Even in cases where the altered genes are inherited, it doesn't mean we have to pick an extreme and either cure all diseases or no diseases. Some genetic diseases are bad for us and give no advantage to us. In the event that we come across a disease we're vulnerable to, we can just gene-engineer ourselves to get a resistance to them.

Even if genetic-alteration makes us more vulnerable to super diseases like the Black Plague, keep in mind that the "natural solution" didn't work very well for 50% of Europe who died as a result of it. Assuming they had access to gene-editing technology and made themselves immune to the Plague, thus opening up to the "White Plague" which kills 20% of their population, it's still a preferable outcome in the end.

EDIT:
The technical extinction of Homo Sapiens. I expect there will be enough hold-outs that this wouldn't be seen for several centuries at least.

Divergent 'evolution' causing a significant split in subspecies and more violent splits in subcultures.
What's the problem here? This would be no different than Homo Neanderthals all deciding to "upgrade" themselves to Homo Sapiens.

What?

Quote
What methods can be employed to prevent that outcome?
In this age of free information flow and increasing automation? Let's turn this around. You are a billionaire (Between $1,000,000,000 and $1,200,00,000 in net worth). How do you and your peers develop and then make use of super-genius genmods (Let's say it's restricted to early infancy), and keep the peasantry from making use of it? Remember the many people who will be demanding that this tech be studied and used to remove genetic diseases.
Why would I want to keep the tech out of the hands of the peasantry?
« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 03:35:15 am by Andres »
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wierd

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Re: Gene-Engineering
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2015, 03:51:47 am »

Andres--

The point I tried very hard to make, was that we are unable to see the future, and thus, have no way of knowing if today's harmful mutation will be tomorrows beneficial one. 

Further, allowing little timmy to survive does not remove him from the gene pool, which alters the expression levels of his genetics in the total population over time. To fix this, you would have to not only save little timmy, but also sterilize him. Forced sterilization is a slippery slope that we have already skid out of control once on. The best solution is still to just not intervene.

Also, the comment was in direct response to the previous poster, who was explicitly talking about germ line modification.
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GiglameshDespair

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Re: Gene-Engineering
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2015, 07:27:37 am »

The real issue is ensuring proper bloodflow. I'm not sure if a normal human heart could support a fifth limb and keep everything at full capacity.
I don't see the issue. If we're grafting on fully functional tails, we're probably pretty close to upgraded hearts anyway. Going to need to do something about that to deal with the deaths-by-heart-failure thing.

Why are tails and such always brought up when genetic modifications are?
I think a good portion of it is because some furries want to become more animu. I do wonder how useful it'd actually be... presumably there was a reason our tails got evolved away.
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penguinofhonor

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Re: Gene-Engineering
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2015, 08:02:56 am »

.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2015, 05:37:17 pm by penguinofhonor »
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BFEL

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Re: Gene-Engineering
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2015, 08:30:36 am »

On the lizard-regen thing that...I think greatorder? mentioned, once we cure cancer we can turn that on PERMANENTLY.
And get Wolverine claws. Yes the claws are mandatory :P
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miauw62

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Re: Gene-Engineering
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2015, 08:41:41 am »

Being able to cure cancer doesn't mean we could turn it on permanently.
There's a lot of curable things that people like to avoid.
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scrdest

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Re: Gene-Engineering
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2015, 09:01:01 am »

Being able to cure cancer doesn't mean we could turn it on permanently.
There's a lot of curable things that people like to avoid.
Especially since cancer treatment right now works on the basis of 'kill them all, let God the doctor sort them out', roughly.

And we already can 'cure' cancer. Just not *every* cancer. Expecting a binary 'we have cure, Y/N' is like asking how many years we have to wait before we get a cure for that awful disease called bacterial infection.
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GiglameshDespair

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Re: Gene-Engineering
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2015, 09:09:02 am »

This seems rather fitting.

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BFEL

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Re: Gene-Engineering
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2015, 10:07:46 am »

Well we technically DO have a cure for all cancer. A scalpel :P
We just don't have a VACCINE for most cancer.
Its something I want to work on making, though I'll have to biology quite a bit more before ready.
Current idea is pretty much "find messenger RNA that spreads cancerous code, then find way to intercept" which is roughly one step up from "cure cancer"
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Gene-Engineering
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2015, 10:10:19 am »

CAR T-cell therapy is a more likely cure for cancer, I think. I'd advise getting in a field close to that and/or work in phenotyping tumor cells for target antigens.

Novartis' a big player in this, by the way. If anyone's interested.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 10:16:48 am by ChairmanPoo »
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DJ

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Re: Gene-Engineering
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2015, 10:11:33 am »

I think the internal tailbone we have is needed for comfortable sitting.
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Bohandas

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Re: Gene-Engineering
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2015, 11:03:47 am »

With recent advances in gene-engineering it's seeming more and more likely that we'll eventually get to a place where we can cure genetic diseases relatively easily, but what about going beyond that and actually improving your base human form? Should people be allowed to buy that technology at the risk of creating an upper class of gene-engineered humans?

I think you're confusing cause and effect. There would be an upper class of engineered humans, but only because the people and families able to afford it would be those who are already upper class.


The more troubling issue is the people most likely to be in positions to either afford it and/or regulate it are all lacking in vision and creativity and the inclination to have any installed. So nobody'll do anything really cool with it like adding prehensile tails or gecko pads on their hands or anything like that; they'll just reduce the incidence of genetic disorders such as sickle cell disease...and then all die of malaria
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wierd

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Re: Gene-Engineering
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2015, 11:12:32 am »

Andres--

The point I tried very hard to make, was that we are unable to see the future, and thus, have no way of knowing if today's harmful mutation will be tomorrows beneficial one. 

Further, allowing little timmy to survive does not remove him from the gene pool, which alters the expression levels of his genetics in the total population over time. To fix this, you would have to not only save little timmy, but also sterilize him. Forced sterilization is a slippery slope that we have already skid out of control once on. The best solution is still to just not intervene.

You're all for allowing people with terminal diseases to die, but sterilizing them is a line you won't cross? That's some bizarre logic. I think denying people medical treatment because you think they harm the gene pool is a slippery slope.

I don't think you can say a gene will be beneficial in the future (and should be kept) any more than you can say it won't have future benefits (and should be removed). I think the best choice is not to be paralyzed by the unpredictability, but to use our knowledge to make the best predictions we can and change our treatment of certain genes if new effects are discovered.

It's a form of utilitarian bioethics.

Basically, allowing little timmy, who has accumulated many dangerous mutations in his genetic makeup as a consequence of being a 3rd generation IVF baby (because his father, and grandfather cant produce healthy sperm due to Y chromosome anomalies), to also grow up and require IVF only increases the expression level of the defective Y chromosome in the human population, and only increases the need for medical intervention over time. Preventing timmy's grandfather from getting the IVF, and making him have to adopt instead, removes the genetic health hazards of recurring, required IVF. (In case you didn't know, the reason they have to make so many embryos for IVF is because of embryo viability-- It's very hard on the poor things, and increased genetic anomalies have been reported in literature.)  While IVF allows Sam and Sally Jenkins to finally have their miracle baby that they've waited their whole lives for-- how many future generations of Jekins' kids will suffer for their choice?

Choosing not to intervene means choosing not to mess with a process that has more than 2 billion years of evidence proving that it works, and works well.
Choosing TO intervene means choosing to proceed on the assumption that we can do better than this process, motivated by short term goals (Giving the Jenkins' their miracle baby.)

While it makes people happy NOW, and makes them feel good NOW, it is NOT the solution that produces the most healthy population LATER, and thus is excluded when utilitarian bioethical standards are applied.

Basically, your argument seems to boil down to "But that's mean! How can you justify allowing people to die KILLING PEOPLE, then saying that forced sterility is too extreme!? HOW CAN HAS HAPPEN!?! I think we should do what makes people feel the happiest!"

Nevermind that allowing people to die is fast becoming a patient right, in the wake of "Life saving" procedures that leave somebody as an immobile glob of flesh supported by machines, who suffer in agony the whole time, mostly because of emotional attachments of other people for that person. Things like DNRs.  Allowing people to die is NOT the same thing as actively killing them. Sterilizing people IS actively harming people.  It's a fine line, and that's the criterion on which I draw it.

As I said, it is WILDLY unpopular. Never the less, I have some pretty good reasons for resorting to it as a position.
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Bohandas

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Re: Gene-Engineering
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2015, 11:21:22 am »

Choosing not to intervene means choosing not to mess with a process that has more than 2 billion years of evidence proving that it works, and works well.
Choosing TO intervene means choosing to proceed on the assumption that we can do better than this process, motivated by short term goals (Giving the Jenkins' their miracle baby.)

While it makes people happy NOW, and makes them feel good NOW, it is NOT the solution that produces the most healthy population LATER, and thus is excluded when utilitarian bioethical standards are applied.

We don't -need- a healthy population later. If these things are options it means we have advanced medicines.
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wierd

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Re: Gene-Engineering
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2015, 11:26:58 am »

You are only going to increase the prevalence of that future generation to REQUIRE those advanced medicines, while the environment around them has no such requirements.

In short, you are going to architect a future where massive dieoffs happen when production of XYZ medication for ABC disorder does not ship on schedule.
That's not a future I want for mankind. Making the Jenkins' feel happy today is not worth that kind of price.
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