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Author Topic: What the eff?  (Read 22891 times)

Cthulhu

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Re: What the eff?
« Reply #45 on: June 10, 2008, 10:15:00 pm »

I got the sense he was suggesting eugenics to purge the genetic traits that predispose people to violent crime.

I have to hand it to this forum though, a discussion like this on any other forum would've been promptly closed, and if it weren't, people would be hitting each other with broken bottles about now.

[ June 10, 2008: Message edited by: Cthulhu ]

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Mel_Vixen

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Re: What the eff?
« Reply #46 on: June 10, 2008, 10:45:00 pm »

I think uploading an additional PNG isnt necessary now. If something is lost in translation i would forgive that and i hope you forgive me too. If you speak German maybe we could discuss via PN.

 

quote:
you said that it is impossible for someone to be born predisposed to murder or other grievous acts after I said they are:

Well i see that you argued first that some Murderes are born to be murderers. As reaction i wrote a very sarcastic answer that is indicating that by aboration we could handle that problem by murdering the murderer first. This is not what i believe and i marked that statement as Sarcastic.

I believe that every being is born pure innocent.

If i would follow your argumention that a murderer has lost his human rights etc. (so he would countas animal right?) isnt then a innocent live many times more worthy then the live of an murderer? Wouldnt be this one innocent person worthy enought keeping him and all the others because we could maybe find out who is a murderer and who is innocent? A session on the electric chair costs maybe 50 Dollars in all. Isnt a innocent live much more worth then silly 50 Dollars or the live of 1000 Murderers?

If there would be a way to part the real murderers from the innocent you would have falsificated the first flaw i see in the deathpenalty.

On that Biblething: I had translated from an German evangelical Bible which is a copy of "D. Martin Luther"s translation from the Latin texts to German. The origianl sentence as translated by Luther says "Du sollst nicht töten.".

[ June 10, 2008: Message edited by: Heph ]

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Torak

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Re: What the eff?
« Reply #47 on: June 10, 2008, 10:55:00 pm »

Don't turn it into a "what if" debate, that's irrelevant to the situation. The argument is murderers don't deserve to leech off of society, especially those who do not have remorse or anything to regret from their crime. Their staying alive not only strains the government, but it weakens the moral barrier which people say "you are wrong for this, but we will just allow you to go ahead and do it anyways".

[ June 10, 2008: Message edited by: Torak ]

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Cthulhu

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Re: What the eff?
« Reply #48 on: June 10, 2008, 11:00:00 pm »

That's why you turn them to something productive.  Lots of prisons force community service projects, a less ethical but more useful use for them would be experimentation.  Find out what it is that makes them kill, and find a way to cure it.  Make them indentured servants and give them manufacturing jobs for no pay, that should ease the burden they create by being in prison.  Just don't kill them.
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Mel_Vixen

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Re: What the eff?
« Reply #49 on: June 10, 2008, 11:07:00 pm »

Now i tell that cheating Torak, killing the discussion because of something you say its "fact". If you think something is irrelevant to the discussion please approve it as true. For example by a statistic that indicates that in a state/country without deathrow is noticable more crime as in one with deathrow.

edit:
I see a Prison is Moneyintensive but there are ways to make it less expensive down to a +/- 0 calculation.

[ June 11, 2008: Message edited by: Heph ]

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Torak

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Re: What the eff?
« Reply #50 on: June 10, 2008, 11:10:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Cthulhu:
<STRONG>That's why you turn them to something productive.  Lots of prisons force community service projects, a less ethical but more useful use for them would be experimentation.  Find out what it is that makes them kill, and find a way to cure it.  Make them indentured servants and give them manufacturing jobs for no pay, that should ease the burden they create by being in prison.  Just don't kill them.</STRONG>


You disagree with killing, but you're all for slavery? Where's the grey area?

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Sappho

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Re: What the eff?
« Reply #51 on: June 10, 2008, 11:14:00 pm »

I'm staying out of this unresolvable debate, but I just can't resist the temptation to point out that nowhere in the Bible does it say "Thou shalt not kill" or "Du sollst nicht töten" - it says something in Aramaic or Hebrew, which has been hand-copied and translated so many times over the millenia that it would be impossible to know for sure what the exact wording was unless you were fluent in those languages and got your hands on the original copy.

By the way, Heph, your English is quite good, but I see that you are translating many words directly from Deutsch to Englisch, and some of the colloquialisms and phrases do not translate well this way.  Are you familiar with the Technische Universität Chemnitz Wörterbuch at dict.tu-chemnitz.de ?  I use it for all my translations and vocabulary.  It even includes pronunciation and colloquialisms.  I highly recommend it.

Now I'm going to run away before I get sucked into a debate that can't be won by either side...

Cthulhu

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Re: What the eff?
« Reply #52 on: June 10, 2008, 11:18:00 pm »

By being forced to work, they pay their debt to society, and pay their rent, so to speak, in the prison.  If you kill them, they haven't given anything back for what they've done, you just give bitter victims a sense of vindication.
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Mel_Vixen

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Re: What the eff?
« Reply #53 on: June 10, 2008, 11:24:00 pm »

By this work they pay theyr food, theyr Clothes, the space they are living in etc. Ok its Suboptimal but no one has said that they have to work on inhuman conditions. And most prisoners want to do something productive, so most times you dont have to force them to work. If an prisoner is willing to work out what he gets from the Country why not?

Anyway forcing someone to work might be in a grey area but it is much better as to be dead isnt it?


Thank you sappho i normally use Google for a translation and that freaking spell checker that is build in in my Firefox but im going to use the Translator from the TU as well.

[ June 11, 2008: Message edited by: Heph ]

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Sappho

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Re: What the eff?
« Reply #54 on: June 10, 2008, 11:50:00 pm »

Google-Übersetzung ist Mist - immer wortgetrau, aber das ist nicht immer richtig.  Das Wörterbuch von TU-Chemnitz zieht Grammatik und Umgangssprachausdrücke in Erwägung.

Wünsche Dir Glück mit deiner Debatte!

Mel_Vixen

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Re: What the eff?
« Reply #55 on: June 10, 2008, 11:56:00 pm »

Stimmt google macht mich auch langsam fertig weil ich für die meisten Wörter erst passenden Context suchen muss anstatt das Google einfach mehrere Möglichkeiten gibt. Danke nochmals für den Hinweis mit der TU. Mein english kann nur besser werden  :D.

Anyway this is an US board so it would be rude to speak German.

[ June 11, 2008: Message edited by: Heph ]

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[sarcasm] You know what? I love grammar Nazis! They give me that warm and fuzzy feeling. I am so ashamed of my bad english and that my first language is German. [/sarcasm]

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Eagleon

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Re: What the eff?
« Reply #56 on: June 11, 2008, 12:12:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Kagus:
<STRONG>Is that so.  

When I see someone who murders people just for the thrill of taking their life away from them, I do not see a human.  I see a monster.

When I see a man who has utterly fractured the lives of women by taking them against their will, I do not see a human.  I see a monster.

When I see someone who kidnaps a twelve-year-old girl and tortures her until she starves to death, I do not see a human.  I see a monster.


People speak of the death sentence as though it were murder.  If that is true, then I would gladly murder each and every one of these monsters.  They had the privilege of being human, and they threw it aside.</STRONG>


Like it or not, these people are representatives of the human species, as are you. The fact that you aren't willing to consider them as such places you on a similar level of sickness, in my opinion - they don't see their victims as humans, either. The term 'monster' used this way kind of turns my stomach. Avoiding the reality of the human condition this way does nothing to solve the problem, and the fact that almost everyone in the world does it makes me wonder if we can ever overcome this stuff.

Just my two cents. Not like it'll change anything.

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Kagus

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Re: What the eff?
« Reply #57 on: June 11, 2008, 01:28:00 am »

Look, society today does not follow the old rules.  That is why we don't do several of the things that seem like good ideas at the time, or are selfish to the point of severely harming those around us.  Yes, we are all human. Homo Sapiens.  The result of a retarded frog-squirrel having buttsex with five monkeys (thank you, Mrs. Garrison).  However, we should make a distinction from the "human" species and the "human" persona.  

The human species is a great ape.  A fantastic one, in fact.  It has developed the most advanced tools on the planet, and uses them to achieve dominant status over all other creatures (except mosquitoes, which we still have not managed to effectively kill).

The human persona is a great ape, but doesn't think it is.  We consider ourselves to be more than mere animals, and so we give ourselves rules and laws that prevent us from doing random stuff, because prevention is the better part of high society.  It is the human persona that creates music, art, and slang terms for genitals.


It is the human persona, our everyday society, which is not reflected in madmen.  To "human" society, they are monsters.  They are still part of the human race, but they're not running.   Homo Sapiens, Monster.

Now, working my way up the board...  Am I the only person who finds "good luck in your debate" to be an unusual comment?  This is a discussion, not a war.

Up again...   Are the victims going to be any less bitter if they see the person who caused them so much pain working on the road outside their neighborhood?  Are they going to get more satisfaction from seeing the person that damaged them in such a way living his life as an average Joe, working an honest job for his clothes and food?  Are they going to feel safe and content in their life when they drive over that road, knowing that that someone helped in making it?  I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time seeing that.

Regardless of how safe the system might actually be, you will never be able to shake the worrying thought that they will escape.


Up some more...    I would like to reiterate, once and for all, if an innocent person is executed it is not because there is a death penalty.  It is because the legal system screwed up and sent an innocent person to a wrongful judgment.  It has absolutely nothing to do with what happens after a person has been sentenced.

And furthermore, the argument about how a life sentence gives innocents a chance at redeeming themselves.  Allow me to clarify something...

A life sentence with ZERO CHANCE of parole means ZERO CHANCE of parole.  If it is not zero chance, then there is always a chance that a real criminal will also get out.

Goin' up...   People are born pure innocent?  I'd like to refrain from sullying this discussion with references to bovine excrement, but that's how I feel about that.

All men (or women) are not created equal.  First, you take simple genetics, the building blocks of every living thing in the known universe.  Sometimes you get a good combination, sometimes you don't.  But more importantly, sometimes you get a mutation.  

Sometimes you get someone who just didn't have his or her building blocks stacked correctly due to a random mutation.  There's not a whole lot you can do to prevent it, there's nothing you can do to get rid of it.  Some people are born different, and different in a way that is horrifying.  They are innocent only in the meaning that they have not yet committed a crime.

And no, I don't speak Deutsche.  I just know how to say "Scheiße", but that has served me very well.


Okay, that looks like most of the major points since my last post.  Unless someone happened to post in the time I spent writing this thing, which is a very probable happening.

McDoomhammer

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Re: What the eff?
« Reply #58 on: June 11, 2008, 04:03:00 am »

I never meant to get into this debate either, so I'll wiithdraw, mentioning only this fact, because it bears saying: it costs the State more to execute a person than to imprison them for life.
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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: What the eff?
« Reply #59 on: June 11, 2008, 04:07:00 am »

I'm going to take on a very extreme point here. Try to keep flaming of the following paragraph to a minimum.

All people, regardless of status, are the same, members of one species. Society allowed us to do many things we do now, but it has stopped our progress as a species. Natural immunities are replaced by chemical cures that need to be administered. Technology stopped our physical advancement. We live longer and better, but is that the point? Ultimately, technology and society will not be able to help if something happens with us. I don't say "throw away our technology" or anything like that. I say that people of this planet, having worked out a set of standards and rules they call "laws" and "rights", forgot that the driving force behind those was only one - survival of the species. We have now occupied the entirety of the planet, even if we didn't survey all of its murky depths or forgotten places, and I think it's about time we started to make ourselves better rather than more numerous. Human life isn't as valuable as the society has made it be. I keep hearing news of "terrible accidents" where some 30 people were killed in a plane crash, or elsewhere. Granted, the psychological aspect of this, for relatives and friends, is very great, otherwise it would not be noticed. But on the planetary scale, it is not an impact at all. Natural selection took care that only the most able made it through. Since we can't throw modern society away now, change "most able" to "most useful to society", and I think we can get somewhere.
With that said, I think my opinion on the matter of criminal punishment should be rather clear. I should note though that the manner or "extraction from society" can differ. Death is one way, and it should be granted to those that choose it. If I were to invent an original means of detention, I probably would not be able to, but a reasonably safe and self-sufficient way would be to introduce them to an isolated (geographically) environment that can be utilized to support the life of its inhabitants, with no other means of sustenance than agriculture/fishing/etc. Think a large neutral-territory island with hardly anything around it, where you drop people off with basic survival gear and let them do whatever they want, without excessive monitoring. Patrols or some means of restricting passage off the island (a floating ring-shaped installation?) would be required, because with a sufficient number of people and raw resources, various stuff is possible, but it would not be quite as expensive as keeping all the prisons around.

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