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[XXSockXX]

I'm not aware that you could be fined for going into the wrong bathroom around here. It's certainly considered inappropriate for a man to wander into the women's bathroom, but I'm pretty sure actual consequences depend more on your overall behaviour and such.

Still the issue has been in the media here lately, since some districts of Berlin have started to implement unisex bathrooms in public buildings. Part of the debate was of course the whole gender thing, but it was less about people using the "wrong" toilet, but more about forcing people to identify as either male or female by choosing one of the two bathroom options.
Also they just designated one bathroom (usually the women's bathroom) into unisex, because that way it cost nothing. That is of course a bit questionable, but Berlin has no money, so...
The one good argument against unisex toilets is that women will feel less safe if men are around in the bathroom. Still unisex bathrooms make a lot of sense to me, not only because of transgender people, but for cases like a father having to change his kid's diaper (often not possible in men's rooms), or generally for parents having to take their young kids (of the opposite sex) to the toilet.

In many nightclubs in Berlin unisex bathrooms work fine, especially if they were designed that way (like with the urinals on the other end of the room and lots of bathroom stalls.) I'm pretty sure we will see these more and more in the future, it's just the cost of renovating old (especially public) buildings that slows it down.

Actual "transgender bathrooms" seem like a terrible idea, you might as well force them to wear signs. Or have separate bathrooms for homosexuals too. And for Jews obviously. 

[scriver]

My high school had unisex toilets, which were clusters of 2-5 toilet rooms around a "central room", do to speak. It worked fine., and the toilets were much nicer there than almost anywhere I've been.

I will try and chime in with a few points:
a) In Europe, we have all those laws about sexual violence, mobbing, and various other sex crimes. I'm pretty sure a (sex) man in a women's bathroom would be in for, like, a major fee and a few months in jail... Since law is the law, and common sense has no implication in the court. Also, really, if we are going to use common sense instead of billions of laws, I'm in for it, but we really need to get rid of, like, 85% of the laws already established.

I don't think any of those laws would apply if a person is using the toilet for it's purpose. At least I hope not.

[Truean]

People are scared about something and love the idea that they have control over their fate. They don't, but they're gonna complain and try futile things in pursuit of that delusion anyhow. Transgender people pose no real threat anyhow.

[ShadowHammer]

See above post^ for what I'm responding to.
"Delusion" 1
Laws and law enforcement do prevent crime, though. Saying they don't is patently untrue; you don't need to stop a bullet in mid-air to prevent a murder, you just need to create the right sequence of neuron firings to prevent the gunman from pulling the trigger. The knowledge that you will be punished and are a terrible person if you shoot someone does exactly that, it changes the logical processing of your brain such that you are less likely to shoot someone.
Obviously, laws don't stop all crime, but that's no reason to not try to stop some of it.

Delusion 2
No response necessary.

"Delusion" 3
The fact that most people drown in water is why we wear life jackets and put guardrails on bridges. If what you're saying is, "Well, obviously people are vulnerable in washrooms", I fail to see how that supports the argument "Let's not do anything about it."
If this is a strawman, which is not what I intended, could you please clarify the meaning of the point?
Also, the path of least resistance argument only works if you think humans are rational agents, which a lot of the time, we're not. Perhaps only stupid people rob people at the ATM, but the security cameras still catch those people.

I think that people should just use whatever bathroom they feel is appropriate to their situation. However, barring a massive and widespread shift in public opinion, that is probably not a solution to the actual problems raised by the issue, and as such, I think unisex washrooms are a good idea. It's not like anyone actually prefers urinals to stalls, anyway.

In reply to the last couple sentences, no. The only way society ever improves is if we try to improve it, and saying, "We can't do anything about this, it's up to fate" is a completely counterproductive mindset.

[LordBucket]

@Truean

I don't think your list of delusions are relevant though. Gendered bathrooms aren't for crime deterrence. I think it's simply a matter of personal comfort. People tend to behave differently when around the opposite sex, largely due to social expectations and the trained desire to keep up appearances. When you're peeing is not a time most people want to deal with that.

[XXXXYYYY]

-snip-

Don't quote Truean.

PTW btw.

[Leafsnail]

Wait, why do we need separate rooms? What's wrong with cubicles?

As far as I can tell, in most places you could just remove the wall and the gender signs to get a unisex bathroom.

I mean today I realized that one of the toilets at my university is exactly like this and nobody cares (I didn't even notice until this discussion prompted me to think about it) so I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea.  However, you are kindof fighting a much larger case there and also not necessarily helping transgender people as much, since you are no longer supporting their gender identity.

It's sortof similar to how fighting for marriage equality - that is, explicitly asserting that same-sex relationships are just as valid and real as opposite-sex ones - has hugely improved the public perception of homosexuals.

[Truean]

Transgender people should be allowed to use the bathroom of their transitioning target gender.

[Loud Whispers]

Truean: I'd say pack your things and go to Europe, at first opportunity. But that's just me being Euro-lover.
Other than that, what mainiac and Neonivek said.

Bad decade to go to Europe
Go to Aussieland, Kiwiland or Syrupland

[penguinofhonor]

.

[LordBucket]

I don't see where you're coming from. I don't think this has much to do with transgenders at all. If a biologically male, CIS-etc guy walked into a girl's bathroom...it would make people uncomfortable.

This isn't about you.

[Truean]

"I don't think this has much to do with transgenders at all."
 
 

Pardon me, but what on earth are you talking about? Forgetting the thread name itself, how doesn't it?

[alexandertnt]

Truman means that part of the problem is that people don't see transgender as an actual thing, so a male-to-female transgendered person is just seen as a male CIS guy.

[LordBucket]

No, I'm saying that this is a trivial issue and it's silly that people worry about it. That, at least in the context of bathroom use, there should be no need to differentiate between male and FtM or between female and MtF. Yes, there are cases where reality means that there are differences. Last i checked, for example, MtF people are incapable of becoming pregnant. So, there's a difference, yes. But stuff like that really, really doesn't need to matter when it comes time to choosing which room to pee in.

I'm willing to let the people in the middle decide for themselves which room to use, based on their own personal judgement about which is more appropriate in their case. And if they guess wrong and somebody is uncomfortable as a result, well that's unfortunate, but sometimes social interactions are uncomfortable. Make your best guess. This is not an important enough issue to require legislation or construction of a third bathroom type.

Regarding this not being about transgenders at all...I still think it isn't. Go find some real life girl and ask her: "if you were in a girl's only bathroom and somebody with a penis walked in, would that make you uncomfortable/suspicious/put you on guard?" I don't think that answer is going to change if the person with a penis is wearing a dress or "feels strongly" that they'd have been better off as a girl. Yes, there are some difficult places in the middle. If you're a pre-operative, taking hormones and dressed convincingly as a girl...but you still have a penis...ok, yeah...there's some room in the middle that's fuzzy. Like I said, make your best guess. I suspect that if anybody looked at you not naked would conclude you're a woman, it would probably be more comfortable for others for you to use the woman's bathroom rather than the men's bathroom even if you do still have a penis.

This isn't about you. It's about common courtesy and not making other people uncomfortable. So long as you act on the intention to not make others uncomfortable rather than turning the whole issue into an opportunity to "prove to the world" that your own personal sense of gender identity is more important than other people, I'm wiling to accept your best guess made on a case by case basis. Probably a lot of transgenders could pass for either sex depending on how they're dressed and made up. I would suggest choosing based on which you most closely resemble at the moment in the context of what others around you will be most likely to be comfortable with.

Truman means that part of the problem is that people don't see transgender as an actual thing, so a male-to-female transgendered person is just seen as a male CIS guy.

I don't think that's how the average person sees it. Granted, this isn't a conversation I've had with a lot of people, but I think if you were to pick a bunch of people at random and ask "Joe was born a man, then took hormones until he grew boobs, had surgery to remove his penis, changed his name to Joann and now acts like a woman, dresses like a woman and lives like a woman. Is it ok for Joann to call herself a girl and use the girl's bathroom?"

I think most people are going to say yes.

Now, if you then ask a guy if he'd want to know before having sex with Joann, I think most would also say yes. They'd want to know. And probably some would decline. Though I suspect how good looking Joann is would probably be a significant factor in the decision either way.

But call herself a girl and use the woman's bathroom? Yes, I think the totally average person with no particular investment in gender topics would agree that's ok.

[ArKFallen]

The question becomes why? Why would CIS men in particular? Would it be okay for gay men?
If it is sexual orientation WhyTheFuck aren't they going after Lesbians?!?

Would they say that people with Androgen Insensitivity Disorder are men (note that anyone advocating for dna testing would say they are) and therefore shouldn't use women's restrooms but men's? Is it genital shape? Does altering those bits to match make it not a problem (despite the fact many would still call them men)?
Note that people with the aforementioned physically resemble females, sometimes even down below.