Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Frumple]

I can't even tell if you folks are talking about the same "they" at this point.

[Orange Wizard]

Neither can I. Apparently internet arguments turn me into a fucking moron.

Who knew?

[smjjames]

Truean, nobody is asking you to apologize for being born the way you were, nobody here on Bay12 at least.

[Bauglir]

Yeah but we suddenly seem to be doing a good job of defending the apparent right of people who are doing that to keep doing that.

[Truean]

Hey Orange Wizard, how're you? I hope you're doing well, but it would appear you're somewhat stressed. I hope that gets better. I realize I'm presenting a very different viewpoint than what I assume you're used to.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

This all quite a lot so let me just say this:

As I see it there could be either unisex bathrooms or separate bathrooms for transgender people. I'd prefer unisex so that society, the grossly bigoted hag that she is, can get over it quicker. I'm offended that people find it a problem. I'm offended in general that people can take issue with others for their lifestyle decisions and/or the fact that some people are hermaphroditic by birth. Just go to the fucking toilet and don't worry about what gender the person in the enclosed stall next to you is.

[Leafsnail]

I think separate toilets for transgender people is an actively awful idea since it fuels misconceptions (people thinking "transgender" means "neither male nor female") and would be incredibly hard to implement.  It isn't happening and wouldn't be good even if it did.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

I think separate toilets for transgender people is an actively awful idea since it fuels misconceptions (people thinking "transgender" means "neither male nor female") and would be incredibly hard to implement.  It isn't happening and wouldn't be good even if it did.

Good. Good.

[Neonivek]

If no, then that leads to everything I said the opposition thinks. If you answer no then you think transgender is a fraud of some sort perpetuated to do bad things that make others uncomfortable. You're going against decades of medical science, etc, but if that's what you believe, then this is ultimately the source of why you oppose letting transgender people use restrooms you don't believe they are "changing into...." Saying no, essentially means that transgender people are a fraud and that no matter what they do, they can NEVER become the other gender.

I dunno... I don't believe one can truly change their sex and I don't believe anything the opposition says.

Seems like a very big "You are either with us, or you are a bigot" there...

But I can officially say.... You're wrong in the case of "You are going against medical science", which I just checked.
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/sex

I don't understand why the entire debate needs to be in whether or not you can change your sex? Why is that the vital key to the entire conversation?

Why is that that "Gender is more important and is ultimately the deciding factor over what you should consider someone to be" is the wrong answer to this?

Because sex is biological and there are few ways to actually change your biology. There is no procedure that gives you any reproductive, even if they do not function, organs... no way to alter your genes (currently). Seriously what does that surgery do that can justify saying that someone now has a different sex? It is the equivalent of saying a facelift makes someone younger... unless the hormone therapy changes your sex... What part of the procedure?

And while Gender is also biological (which is where medical science has started popping in), it is affected by biology rather then the product of... (though to my knowledge you can't EXACTLY change your gender either... Load someone up on tons of hormones and give them a sex change surgery and they will still keep their old gender)

Meaning if one were to get into it... Sex is your physical sex and Gender is your mental sex... and in many ways your Gender is your true sex.

Medical Science is actually a LOT closer to saying that differing genders is actually because biologically you have a different mental and physical sex created because your brain has one gender and your body has another (and thus your gender and sex are in fact always the same)... then it is to promoting sex change operations... as well a lot of people don't actually get the surgery.

Your defense literally only defends people who are transgendered who have had a sex change operation...

How many of them actually go through with the surgery? Around 30% (Yes I did research)

So no the debate isn't contained in "Can you really change your sex".

Edit: UHHHHHHHHH... I think I am going to stop doing research... >_< lets just say the Surgery is not a magic bullet... and it is incredibly depressing.

[Truean]

...

[smjjames]

I'm just noting that you were talking about from the perspective of MtF transgender, but what of FtM? How does that go with bathrooms? Just wondering out of curiosity here, but I can guess they'd be in exactly the same situation, maybe even worse.

[SirQuiamus]

I dunno... I don't believe one can truly change their sex and I don't believe anything the opposition says.

==> "I don't believe one can truly change their sex and therefore I don't believe anything everything the opposition says."
Because that's all they are saying.
In response to LordBucket's earlier criticism of the positive discrimination of "protected minorities":
Is it possible to point out a situation where short people (or another "non-protected" minority) are exposed to violent hate crime by bigoted legislation, and where the problem could easily be corrected by not drafting up imbecile, bigoted laws? No-one is being "overprotective" of "special snowflakes" -- it's just that the problems faced by certain minorities happen to be poignant cases-in-point about legal human rights issues, while the "non-protected" majority just happens to be unaffected by such oversights. 

[Neonivek]

Edit: Naw just forget it.

[Redzephyr01]

I really don't understand why people don't just let people use whatever bathroom they want to use.

[Neonivek]

I really don't understand why people don't just let people use whatever bathroom they want to use.

I tried to find out, to see a more in depth article on the position of "they shouldn't". It is actually really hard to find.

Did anyone else have better luck?

But really outside of whatever thought went into passing the law it is easier to understand when you understand that we are a society obsessed with "sex offenders".

It is mostly just a mix between ungrounded paranoia and puritanical gender separation.