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Author Topic: Overwatch  (Read 170049 times)

Leafsnail

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Re: Overwatch - Released
« Reply #1200 on: December 07, 2016, 10:53:24 pm »

Bastion honestly seems pretty bad even at the very low level of Overwatch that I play. The fact that he's completely stationary means my usually fairly inaccurate shots can easily find their mark on him, and you can generally just fire short bursts at him and duck back into cover before his gun does too much damage to you. Particularly good characters for doing this:
- Soldier 76: Helix Rockets melt his armor and leave him vulnerable
- Junkrat: Your damage output is very high when you can connect your shots with a stationary target.
- Zenyatta: You can deal a lot of damage to him in a short peek due to discord + a charged right click.
- Phara: Rockets do a good amount of damage and you can peek from unexpected locations due to her flight abilities.
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Mephansteras

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Re: Overwatch - Released
« Reply #1201 on: December 07, 2016, 11:01:37 pm »

Bastion can good behind a Reinhardt, and in ambush spots where he can mow people down before they can react. He can also be good he just far enough away that people are paying attention to the front line fighters and don't notice him in time.

But, yeah, he's not great overall and there are lots of counters to him. Still, I've done well with him on occasion and seen him used pretty well a number of times.
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Blargityblarg

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Re: Overwatch - Released
« Reply #1202 on: December 07, 2016, 11:38:38 pm »

Bastion when played well doesn't necessarily show up where you expect him; he wants to show up in different places every time and require resources to deal with and coordination for them every single time he shows up. Jumping around corners, shifting into turret in midair, there's much more to bastion than sitting at a single vantage point and m1ing until you're peeked to death.
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: Overwatch - Released
« Reply #1203 on: December 08, 2016, 02:23:14 am »

The thing I've seen time and time again at low level OW play is that people see a target they can't quickly kill on their own, and they just ignore it.  They look at Roadhog and they're like "there's no way I'll kill that, I'll just trying".  At higher levels people (generally) understand that they aren't the only damage dealer on the team so if they can get 300 damage out on the Roadhog maybe someone else will do the other 300.

Bastion is super intimidating to new players I think.  So they don't even try to shoot him, or they get frustrated and try a frontal charge.  But if you just shoot him he folds quickly.  300 health, largest non-tank hitbox in the game, literally can't move?  Might as well be paper.  He really needs the Rein shield, but same principle.  Just shoot it and it'll die eventually, its not like you're going to miss the big red rectangle.  If your whole team pitches in (which they should considering the Mercy + Rein + Bastion combo is half the enemy player slots) it'll be a matter of seconds.
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King Kitteh

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Re: Overwatch - Released
« Reply #1204 on: December 08, 2016, 03:23:13 am »

Bastion when played well doesn't necessarily show up where you expect him; he wants to show up in different places every time and require resources to deal with and coordination for them every single time he shows up. Jumping around corners, shifting into turret in midair, there's much more to bastion than sitting at a single vantage point and m1ing until you're peeked to death.
This is what I have so much trouble with.

I play Quickplay where there's zero communication, these surprise turret kills become very frustrating when your only hint to his location is someone dying beforehand.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Overwatch - Released
« Reply #1205 on: December 08, 2016, 06:13:19 am »

Bastion when played well doesn't necessarily show up where you expect him; he wants to show up in different places every time and require resources to deal with and coordination for them every single time he shows up. Jumping around corners, shifting into turret in midair, there's much more to bastion than sitting at a single vantage point and m1ing until you're peeked to death.
I mean sure, but you could also do that with any of the characters that don't require you to root yourself to the spot to do any real damage.
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JimboM12

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Re: Overwatch - Released
« Reply #1206 on: December 09, 2016, 08:38:03 am »

Sooooo....I was just accused of hacking after sniping a Pharah in mid air with grenades as Junkrat, nevermind that she wasn't strafing or otherwise moving, only hovering lazily upwards.
This was also after getting complained at that i didnt choose a 3rd tank to compete in the 3tank meta. Still took gold eliminations and team damage, and silver objective time over our damage dealer who was a 76. And we won rather comfortably, but it was a hard fight. People who adhere too much to accepted meta play are really easy to counter.
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Flying Dice

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Re: Overwatch - Released
« Reply #1207 on: December 09, 2016, 01:53:52 pm »

Yeah, bad Pharahs are surprisingly easy to grenade. Harder now that they can jump more often without landing.
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: Overwatch - Released
« Reply #1208 on: December 09, 2016, 04:12:53 pm »

Today I played against what was basically an W+M1 Pharah.  Not literally but she just kept moving in the same direction which was usually right towards the enemy team.  It was a trip to watch.
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Folly

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Re: Overwatch - Released
« Reply #1209 on: December 09, 2016, 06:17:39 pm »

The thing I've seen time and time again at low level OW play is that people see a target they can't quickly kill on their own, and they just ignore it.

This is why I hate Zarya...at low levels, someone accidentally shoots her shield a couple times and the opposing team all flee in terror while she picks them off one by one with her charged weapon, making her seem like the most OP hero in the game.
High levels, people shoot through her shield deliberately, then everyone focuses her and she dies in less than a second, making her the least effective tank and one of the most useless heroes in the game.
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Ygdrad

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Re: Overwatch - Released
« Reply #1210 on: December 09, 2016, 06:36:29 pm »

The thing I've seen time and time again at low level OW play is that people see a target they can't quickly kill on their own, and they just ignore it.

This is why I hate Zarya...at low levels, someone accidentally shoots her shield a couple times and the opposing team all flee in terror while she picks them off one by one with her charged weapon, making her seem like the most OP hero in the game.
High levels, people shoot through her shield deliberately, then everyone focuses her and she dies in less than a second, making her the least effective tank and one of the most useless heroes in the game.

I'm not sure how you come up with her being one of the most useless heroes in the game at high level seeing as her ult is a staple of most team-wiping combos at high end competitive play. The barrier she can give allies is super strong if used right, stopping all crowd-control and saving people from 1-shotting abilities, making it extremely useful for protecting ulting teammates. With D.va being very popular at the moment and Zarya's beam being one of few things that can penetrate her defense matrix she's fairly useful and the improved beam damage mechanics from a recent update allows her to keep Genji at bay more reliably than before.

Edit: To make sure I'm not just talking out of my ass. http://i.imgur.com/vX8JURE.png shows that more zarya players are in the top500 than all other tanks combined and that she was the second most-mained for season 2 top500.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2016, 01:36:58 pm by Ygdrad »
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Flying Dice

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Re: Overwatch - Released
« Reply #1211 on: December 10, 2016, 03:07:52 pm »

Yeah, Zarya's incredibly good, in part because of how many different things she does. Her ult is one of the best CC abilities in the game and sets up easy wipes for pretty much all of the offensive ults. Her barriers soak a good chunk of burst and block CC, which is useful in myriad situations, from saving someone from Tracer ult to covering Mercy for a four-man rez. Your primary fire circumvents a lot of the most powerful defenses in the game and is now very good for burning fast flankers. Your secondary fire isn't as damaging as Junkrat's grenades, but has the same benefit of indirect fire and the bombs explode on impact (which is both good and bad, depending). She has a large shield pool, which makes her resilient in the same way as Roadhog without needing to stop doing stuff to heal.

There are situations where you really need a Reinhardt, D.Va, and occasionally a Roadhog. But in general, if you're not exceptionally good with another tank, Zarya is a solid all-around pick. I use D.Va a lot more, but that's because I love how she plays and am better with her than with most other tanks. Zarya is pretty much only suboptimal if your team really needs a tank to sit their ass on the cart and nobody else is doing it, since her defensiveness comes in bursts rather than over time.
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Folly

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Re: Overwatch - Released
« Reply #1212 on: December 10, 2016, 06:44:22 pm »

Yeah, Zarya's incredibly good, in part because of how many different things she does. Her ult is one of the best CC abilities in the game and sets up easy wipes for pretty much all of the offensive ults. Her barriers soak a good chunk of burst and block CC, which is useful in myriad situations, from saving someone from Tracer ult to covering Mercy for a four-man rez. Your primary fire circumvents a lot of the most powerful defenses in the game and is now very good for burning fast flankers. Your secondary fire isn't as damaging as Junkrat's grenades, but has the same benefit of indirect fire and the bombs explode on impact (which is both good and bad, depending). She has a large shield pool, which makes her resilient in the same way as Roadhog without needing to stop doing stuff to heal.

I have to disagree with almost all of this.
Her ult leaves enemies free to shoot or use escape abilities, and bunches them all up so they are easy targets, but also makes them easier to all be shielded by any barrier or defensive skill. A reinhardt, winston, or another zarya can just pop their shields to protect the whole bunch. Also almost any ultimate will at least soft counter.

Her bubbles are useful for countering CC and 1-shot-kill abilities, but they are extremely weak at just 200 health and have giant hitboxes. Bubbles will not provide any meaningful protection against sustained dps. As I said before, this can seem overwhelming against teams that are afraid of her, but is largely useless against teams who know to simply shoot through her bubbles and keep shooting until she is dead. She has the least health+shields of any tank and no movement abilities, making it impractical for her to do what tanks are meant to do by sitting on the front line and soaking up damage. An argument could be made that she is more support than tank.

Saying that her primary fire is effective against speedy flankers is laughable. Her primary fire is a hitscan laser, and speed is basically the best counter to hitscan weapons. Unless you're aimbotting, or the flankers are asleep, you won't do more than occasionally graze them with Zarya's primary.

Her primary fire circumvents a lot of the most powerful defenses in the game? I'm not able to think of any besides D'va atm.

Comparing her secondary to Junkrat is also laughable, when you take into account her fire speed, clip size, and reload time. And I would argue that her exploding on impact is bad far more often than good, giving her none of Junkrat's ability to bounce projectiles around corners and behind barriers.

Zarya does a lot of different things, but she does not do any of them well enough to make a difference against a competent enemy.
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Ygdrad

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Re: Overwatch - Released
« Reply #1213 on: December 10, 2016, 08:18:43 pm »

I have to disagree with almost all of this.
Her ult leaves enemies free to shoot or use escape abilities, and bunches them all up so they are easy targets, but also makes them easier to all be shielded by any barrier or defensive skill. A reinhardt, winston, or another zarya can just pop their shields to protect the whole bunch. Also almost any ultimate will at least soft counter.
This is a case of "get good". If zarya throws her ult at a team with reinhardt without first breaking his shield or having people in position to hit them from behind that player is playing bad. Winston's bubble is very quickly bursted down by any amount of focused fire and when the enemy team is in a graviton there's no reason anyone should be aiming anywhere else. Few movement abilities can get out of graviton and even if one or two people make it out, a well-used graviton combo will net you at least 3-4 kills and win you the teamfight. Enemies can shoot back at you but they're mostly immobile and you're not, you're also likely in a better defensive position while they've been pulled in the open if your team has decent positioning.

Her bubbles are useful for countering CC and 1-shot-kill abilities, but they are extremely weak at just 200 health and have giant hitboxes. Bubbles will not provide any meaningful protection against sustained dps. As I said before, this can seem overwhelming against teams that are afraid of her, but is largely useless against teams who know to simply shoot through her bubbles and keep shooting until she is dead. She has the least health+shields of any tank and no movement abilities, making it impractical for her to do what tanks are meant to do by sitting on the front line and soaking up damage. An argument could be made that she is more support than tank.
She isn't a main tank, she's a secondary/off-tank. 200hp isn't weak, that's the health of an entire standard character that she gets for free every 10 seconds, bringing her up to the standard 600hp of tanks on top of having shields that regenerate 30hp/s after 3 seconds, giving her very high staying power. She also has a very small hitbox compared to other tanks which lets her take less damage. I'd argue that roadhog makes a worse frontline tank since he also has 600hp, has a huge hitbox and needs to stand still for 2 seconds to heal 300hp that anything will have blown through by then. Zarya being able to absorb 200 damage aimed at another character is also extremely valuable since this is 200 damage that wasn't stopped by your main tank's shield and 200hp that nobody has to lose for them. It allows you to save people who are out of position and is one of very few things that can save a player that gets hooked by roadhog.

Saying that her primary fire is effective against speedy flankers is laughable. Her primary fire is a hitscan laser, and speed is basically the best counter to hitscan weapons. Unless you're aimbotting, or the flankers are asleep, you won't do more than occasionally graze them with Zarya's primary.

Her primary fire circumvents a lot of the most powerful defenses in the game? I'm not able to think of any besides D'va atm.
Speed is in fact less useful against hitscan weapons than it is against non-explosive projectiles to begin with(and she has explosives which push enemies around, throwing off their aim). Second, she has a small hitbox and any flanker trying to throw off her aim is going to have a hard time aiming and hurting her while she gets some easy damage in due to the beam's forgiving nature, forcing them to retreat. Genji definitely is at a disadvantage against Zarya given her small size and his projectiles and tracer would have to get dangerously close to deal any meaningful damage to her. Meanwhile they can just farm ult charge off other larger tanks which need healthpacks/healers(roadhog-aside) to recuperate from chip damage, unlike Zarya who can just play defensive and regain shields, giving the healer an easier time. Roadhog can potentially have an easier time killing flankers, but he's also a lot more vulnerable to them and missing that hook leave him ineffective against them for 6 seconds.

Comparing her secondary to Junkrat is also laughable, when you take into account her fire speed, clip size, and reload time. And I would argue that her exploding on impact is bad far more often than good, giving her none of Junkrat's ability to bounce projectiles around corners and behind barriers.
She's a tank, not an offense hero. On the other hand, her secondary happens to be the longest range tank attack aside from firestrike, is aoe, and disrupts enemy positioning and aim with knockback. It also travels faster than junkrat's grenades, making it more reliable in a teamfight. I'm fairly sure her secondary also has a larger hitbox making for easier direct hits but I could be wrong on this one. Bouncing is neat and can be very useful in the rare occasion that a rein is backed up near a wall, but less reliable when it comes to actually hitting anything when you're not aiming for direct hits and just spamming around. Zarya gets a choice between her primary and secondary to best deal with threats, junkrat doesn't.

Zarya does a lot of different things, but she does not do any of them well enough to make a difference against a competent enemy.
She has unique mechanics that all offer very high value in experienced and/or coordinated hands. You need to stop just taking your opinion based on anecdotal evidence or what you imagine a high level match is like and writing them off as truth when evidence points to the very opposite. She hasn't had up to ~80% pickrate in tournaments because she's bad. 101 out of 168 top500 players who had tanks as their main hero played Zarya, do you think they're all mad? If you're going to argue, do your research.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2016, 08:40:18 pm by Ygdrad »
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Leafsnail

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Re: Overwatch - Released
« Reply #1214 on: December 10, 2016, 10:45:38 pm »

Zarya's power seems to scale up a lot with how coordinated your team is. Shields are a lot better if you put them on people as they push up, and her ult leads into a lot of extremely powerful combos, particularly if you arrange to take down Reinhardt's shield beforehand. If your team is disorganized she can struggle.
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