Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Ops Fox]

Honestly, I never understood why people keep trying to pasture animals aboveground.  Pierce the caverns, wall up that one entrance.  Then dig a giant room out of soil underground.  Your cows will happily eat the cave moss.  You can double this up with training an early miner.  One giant room can be your pasture, and another giant room can be underground (safe) herb/tree farm. 

Now, from a game-play perspective how would this be calculated? Would we simply look for "Number of outside constructed tiles?" As you said, what if you hide a door of the same material as the surrounding stone behind a tree? What about leaving chopped trees (that leave stumps behind)? What about the foot prints of your dorfs as they go to take sips/bathes from nearby pools, pick herbs, hunt game, fish, and drag items (like logs) back into the fort? Will these footsteps increase that counter? Will a skill (ambush?) reduce the visibility of footprints? Will these wear away with time/weather? Will different invaders/civilizations have different chances of finding your fortress (elves being able to find one better than goblins or humans). 

You also have to consider word of mouth.  Remember, you don't get a single caravan from the other races until you get that first autumn caravan from your parent civilization.  So, your home civilization and at least most of hte people in that site will know about your fortress.  They talk and tell their relatives in other sites that some friends/other relatives of theirs are embarking to hte othe rside of hte mountain range (or wherever you are going).  Then the traders visit your fortress.  The next stop on their route could be a nearby human village.  Asking the traders where these -marvelous- wooden spike balls came from, the traders happily say "oh, these came from a new fort of ours just over yonder against hte mountains... yeah where the river comes down into the plains!" So now the humans know where your fort is.  Then someone tells someone who tells a friend that has that sketchy cousin in a bandit troupe just outside town.  That troupe is mostly made up of goblins that tell their friends/relatives back in the goblin civ that they can loot the -best- wooden spiked balls from some new dorf site by a stream coming out of hte mountains.  A year or so of scuttlebutt and another year or so of scouting... and BOOM goblin army at your "hidden" site that still trades. 

Even if you never trade with other races, the mountainhome will obviously know where you are.  Since other dorfs know where you are, they might spread that knowledge as they trade/adventure around.  Considering that your fortress is bankrolled by the home civilization, which will always send a liason to discuss trade agreements (imports/exports) alongside some merchants... Hiding your fort just isn't in the game.  Too many in your home civilization know about your fort- just look at the waves of migrants (some 40 strong!) that will regularly show up at your fort.

Later on, this could be a start scenario (that wouldn't send a giant caravan/yearly liason/hordes of cheesemongers), but with the current shape of hte game its not going to happen.  There are too many people that obviously know about your fort.  They get to talking... and so on down the line of "five degrees of separation" even the local goblins will know about it.

If friends tell friends where your hidden fort is hence the sieges, who tells the dragons and colossi?

[SixOfSpades]

If friends tell friends where your hidden fort is hence the sieges, who tells the dragons and colossi?

Well, either they find out on their own (the dragon flies over your fort, and happens to see a suspicious amount of dwarf vomit and goblin clothings scattered outside), or the goblins tell them voluntarily, or somebody (even a dwarf from your own Mountainhome) tells them involuntarily: "Wait, you don't want to eat ME, I'm just one guy! I know where you can find a lot more, though!"

Alternatively, maybe no one tells the megabeasts. Maybe they (generally) shouldn't be allowed to attack until so many nations have found your fort that its location pretty much becomes common knowledge.

[AceSV]

But most megabeasts are basically animals right?  How does a bear find your camping tent?  The animals just prowl around their native territories until they see something or smell something that makes them want to take a bite. 

If you wanted to make it work like that, you could have megabeasts enter the map but not know exactly where the entrance is.  They prowl around the map and if they don't find anything worth time for let's say a year, they leave the map and look for havoc elsewhere. 

[Dirst]

But most megabeasts are basically animals right?  How does a bear find your camping tent?  The animals just prowl around their native territories until they see something or smell something that makes them want to take a bite. 

If you wanted to make it work like that, you could have megabeasts enter the map but not know exactly where the entrance is.  They prowl around the map and if they don't find anything worth time for let's say a year, they leave the map and look for havoc elsewhere.

Some of the progress triggers are based on wealth, probably as an homage to Smaug.  There was no real explanation of how or why he knew of the dwarves' hoard.

How'd you like to live with yourself knowing that the masterwork socks you knitted were what put a dragon onto your fort's scent?

[BoredVirulence]

...

Some of the progress triggers are based on wealth, probably as an homage to Smaug.  There was no real explanation of how or why he knew of the dwarves' hoard.

How'd you like to live with yourself knowing that the masterwork socks you knitted were what put a dragon onto your fort's scent?

Well, maybe there need not be. Erebor was fairly famous. While Smaug's background isn't very well spelled out, it may be safe to assume tales of Erebor spread throughout the north, and dragons interest in gold suggests they might listen to such tales. Or maybe dragons are special, they already have a magical attachment to gold, maybe they can feel gold as sixth sense?
That being said, I'm no scholar of Tolkien, I've read some but someone truly versed could come and correct me.

And regardless, dragons could easily be a special case considering their intelligence and behavior. Any intelligent megabeast should have the same knowledge-based requirement to locate a fortress, unless they stumble upon it by accident like any goblin could. Or we could construe the wealth requirement to be a sixth "wealth" sense.

[SixOfSpades]

We know that Erebor was not a hidden stronghold for several reasons:
It had the human town of Dale (itself an aboveground and completely obvious settlement) practically right outside its front door,
it was located inside literally the ONLY mountain anywhere around,
it was a major trafficker of all kinds of goods, and exported a good deal of luxury items,
and the side-door is always described with mentions of its great secrecy and camouflage . . . qualities that are NEVER applied to descriptions of the front gate.

As for DF fortresses, I've always found it silly that the goblins & megabeasts magically know not only how many dwarves your fort contains, but how much wealth they've accumulated. It would make far more sense to have invaders only concern themselves with your fort's exports, and regard your fort's population as completely irrelevant--except when calculating your militia's probable ability to repulse attacks. Even better would be for invaders to be attracted to WHAT you're exporting (and/or obviously gathering): Forts with a visibly thriving agricultural industry should be highly appealing to goblins, who are presumably astoundingly bad about growing enough food to feed their innumberable mouths. Bronze collosi, on the other hand, wouldn't care about food at all, but they might have a similar hunger to absorb metal and increase their mass even further, so your metal-bars stockpile might draw them literally like a magnet. Etc.

[LMeire]

... Or we could construe the wealth requirement to be a sixth "wealth" sense.

In a lot of fantasy settings, (and many real world mythologies) gold is considered to be a sort of "hub" or "focal point" for spirits and magic. If we are to assume that DF's magic will be just as "realistic" as actual systems simulated by DF, then I think it'd be fair to say that megabeasts might perceive vast wealth as a "bright spot" in the magic field and hone in on it like migratory birds do with the magnetic field.

[AceSV]

As for DF fortresses, I've always found it silly that the goblins & megabeasts magically know not only how many dwarves your fort contains, but how much wealth they've accumulated. It would make far more sense to have invaders only concern themselves with your fort's exports, and regard your fort's population as completely irrelevant--except when calculating your militia's probable ability to repulse attacks. Even better would be for invaders to be attracted to WHAT you're exporting (and/or obviously gathering): Forts with a visibly thriving agricultural industry should be highly appealing to goblins, who are presumably astoundingly bad about growing enough food to feed their innumberable mouths. Bronze collosi, on the other hand, wouldn't care about food at all, but they might have a similar hunger to absorb metal and increase their mass even further, so your metal-bars stockpile might draw them literally like a magnet. Etc.

Goblins don't eat.  That's totally a thing. 

I've always assumed that the real reason monsters and siegers are attracted to wealth is because it's the game's only way of guessing how far your fortress has progressed.  I'm okay with this.  I like a good reminder now and then that none of this is real. 

[SixOfSpades]

Goblins don't eat.  That's totally a thing.

Soldier-caste goblins don't eat. But pregnant goblin mothers must consume enough food and drink to equal the potential adult mass of her entire current brood combined.

That's my headcanon, and I'm stickin' to it.

[Dirst]

We know that Erebor was not a hidden stronghold for several reasons:
It had the human town of Dale (itself an aboveground and completely obvious settlement) practically right outside its front door,
it was located inside literally the ONLY mountain anywhere around,
it was a major trafficker of all kinds of goods, and exported a good deal of luxury items,
and the side-door is always described with mentions of its great secrecy and camouflage . . . qualities that are NEVER applied to descriptions of the front gate.

As for DF fortresses, I've always found it silly that the goblins & megabeasts magically know not only how many dwarves your fort contains, but how much wealth they've accumulated. It would make far more sense to have invaders only concern themselves with your fort's exports, and regard your fort's population as completely irrelevant--except when calculating your militia's probable ability to repulse attacks. Even better would be for invaders to be attracted to WHAT you're exporting (and/or obviously gathering): Forts with a visibly thriving agricultural industry should be highly appealing to goblins, who are presumably astoundingly bad about growing enough food to feed their innumberable mouths. Bronze collosi, on the other hand, wouldn't care about food at all, but they might have a similar hunger to absorb metal and increase their mass even further, so your metal-bars stockpile might draw them literally like a magnet. Etc.

I did mention upthread that an unhidden fortress should be able to have a hidden entrance.

In addition to coveting specific resources, it would also make sense for beasts to have some kind of Sphere affinity that makes them prefer to lair in certain places.  It would be interesting for your secret fortress to have a megabeast start nesting right in front of your secret access to the surface, unaware of your presence until you make the mistake of mining within its hearing range.

[AceSV]

Anyone know some genuine examples of hidden settlements/fortresses? I've only been able to turn up closed cities from the Manhattan project and such.

Just remembered another one, the Ajanta caves in India.  It is a masterwork engraving of buddhists.  All craftsmanship is of the highest quality.  Not exactly secret, but the world forgot about its existence for 1500 years. 

Which brings to mind remoteness as a factor.  Ajanta isn't secret because it's hard to see, but because it's on a cliff face on a mountain in a jungle.  If the same structure was in the middle of Rome, it would be the 8th Wonder of the World.  (or 9th or 10th or whatever we're up to now) 

[Eldin00]

As for DF fortresses, I've always found it silly that the goblins & megabeasts magically know not only how many dwarves your fort contains, but how much wealth they've accumulated. It would make far more sense to have invaders only concern themselves with your fort's exports, and regard your fort's population as completely irrelevant--except when calculating your militia's probable ability to repulse attacks. Even better would be for invaders to be attracted to WHAT you're exporting (and/or obviously gathering): Forts with a visibly thriving agricultural industry should be highly appealing to goblins, who are presumably astoundingly bad about growing enough food to feed their innumberable mouths. Bronze collosi, on the other hand, wouldn't care about food at all, but they might have a similar hunger to absorb metal and increase their mass even further, so your metal-bars stockpile might draw them literally like a magnet. Etc.

Wealth and population are being used as a proxy for how well known your fortress is in a regional or global scope. Admittedly, none of created wealth, exported wealth, or population is an ideal representation of that, but of the data available to the simulation currently, they're among the best candidates. In fact, for how well known a fortress is beyond it's local environs, they're better candidates than things like how much visible impact you've had on the surrounding countryside.

It's also worth noting that in advanced worldgen, you can set the trigger for titans to use exported wealth in addition to (or instead of) created wealth. I'm uncertain if other (semi-)megabeasts use the titan trigger or something hardcoded. And in the entity raws, contact and siege triggers exist for both created and exported wealth as well. So it's fairly trivial to mod the game to make most creatures from outside your entity only visit based on exports rather than production.

[Sadrice]

I like this idea a lot, and also think it would tie in well with another suggestion I just made: seceding to start your own civ (as an embark scenario).  Your fortress visibility and accessibility would potentially play a major role in how many migrants and merchants you get, as well as how soon you can expect your parent civ to arrive to put down your little rebellion.

[hyperman500]

I remember seeing an Ancient Aliens episode where they mention an underground city in Turkey, it had animal pens, ventilation shafts, churches, etc. This seems quite like what is discussed here.

[Sadrice]

Derinkuyu, probably, which was mentioned in this thread.  Derinkuyu is pretty cool and pretty dwarfy, for instance check out this door.  It's basically a huge millstone that can be rolled out of a slot in the wall to rest in a notch on the other side, blocking the door.  The hole is a combination arrow slit/peephole/handle.  As was mentioned, it was more secure than secret.  Eastern central turkey (cappadocia) has a number of underground cities and is littered with cave tombs and small outposts.  Check out this picture (very high resolution), I think I count 15 separate cave complexes on the spires and cliffsides (I believe they're tombs, but I'm not sure).  Those look a lot like some of the stuff I like to make in DF when I get a good cliff or spire.

EDIT: Two maps of Derinkuyu: One, Two.  Looks very dwarfy indeed, especially with the underground well (doubles as ventilation shaft and surface well, I imagine it was a bit of a hole in the security).  The apparently had an underground winery, though presumably not an underground vineyard.  Maybe if they were invaded during harvest they could hide underground with their grapes and finish up with crush?  Some of the cities even had interconnecting tunnel/roads, potentially miles long, a la DF dwarves.