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[Gatleos]

I suggest that someone draft a simple design doc describing this other version of Cataclysm that you would all like to see. The general consensus seems to be "complexity is good, tedium is bad". The game should retain its difficulty, as well as player freedom and expression, but steps should be taken to remove parts of the game that add unnecessary, tedious obstacles (busywork) between the player and the fun aspects of the game.

Whether anyone here thinks they have the skills to manage a new fork or even contribute to the codebase, getting all these ideas written down in one place will make it easier to chart a course for a potential offshoot.

[Cattani]

I can help with coding. I mean, I know C and C++ (a 10 seconds research tells me Cata is written in C++), but have no experience with game development; my coding experience is largely based on microcontrollers. It would be a welcome challenge.

[Eclectic Wizard]

They removed the many variants of gun stores in favor of that one single boring block which is basically the original Whales design but made more boring and unrealistically secure, it doesn't feel like a gun store in America, it doesn't even feel like a gun store, it acts and feels like a locked up box of guns because some random dev decided they didn't like guns. It is almost as if one of the programmers has no idea that people play different styles in an open ended, open world zombie survival "roguelike" and just wants to restrict the use of guns as much as possible in favor of their own weird image of how they think the game is supposed to be played. I loved the variety and life of the different gun stores, I faintly remember a variant that gave off the impression of being one of those small time family owned gun smiths you see in rural areas of America.

While I liked the whole thing about internal and detachable magazines thing, I didn't like how I need to press three different keys to make a shot, or press f two times at some completely arbitrary penalty just to get a shot off. I really miss Whales, I really do.

[vastaghen12]

They removed the many variants of gun stores in favor of that one single boring block which is basically the original Whales design but made more boring and unrealistically secure, it doesn't feel like a gun store in America, it doesn't even feel like a gun store, it acts and feels like a locked up box of guns because some random dev decided they didn't like guns.

The other variants of gunstore are still in the game, its just  that they have always had minuscule weight in comparison to the original design.

[n9103]

FWIW, Whales estimated that there's about 10 hours of coding left to be done on Cataclysm 2, but doesn't know when(if) he'll get around to it. (RL/lack of passion/etc)

I haven't the foggiest what it's true state is, but if that was an accurate (as opposed to Steam-time ) estimate of the effort remaining, perhaps those dissatisfied with DDA could rally to finish and maintain the semi-abandoned sequel?
I know once upon a time Whales was somewhat opposed to pull requests on Cata1, and while he was still coding, it was pretty much the same for Cata2. But that was also years ago when he still had passion for the project.

Just saying, that (afaik) a pretty much forgotten sequel could be viable given the reasonable circumstances and persuasion.

[George_Chickens]

Wasn't Cata2 meant to be a highly combat oriented game with a clear win condition? That kind of destroyed my interest in it.

I also don't see why people dissatisfied with the current game should just leave, either. It's a community project, and there is clearly a split in the community here. That sounded way more aggressive than I intended.

[Tawa]

I suggest that someone draft a simple design doc describing this other version of Cataclysm that you would all like to see. The general consensus seems to be "complexity is good, tedium is bad". The game should retain its difficulty, as well as player freedom and expression, but steps should be taken to remove parts of the game that add unnecessary, tedious obstacles (busywork) between the player and the fun aspects of the game.

Whether anyone here thinks they have the skills to manage a new fork or even contribute to the codebase, getting all these ideas written down in one place will make it easier to chart a course for a potential offshoot.

I would love to draft this document. I've been effectively silent on this issue, but I'm seriously unhappy with the direction the project has taken, and Kevin's autocratic management has been the root of the problem, IMO.

Any suggestions? I take it I should focus on the project philosophy, but should I be brief on the reasons for the split or expound upon them? Should I go into specifics of what belongs or what doesn't, or should I leave the real nitty-gritty and specific game mechanics out for a later revision once the fork is up and running?

[George_Chickens]

If you're writing it, I'd love to collaborate with you and other forumgoers. It's best to get as many ideas as you can and filter them down into general critiques IMO.

If not, will you take some suggestions?

[n9103]

Drama/politics should be left out entirely of design docs. They shouldn't be a soapbox, but a guiding path.

It should be more of a high-level exposition, as opposed to being detail-oriented, as far as in-game things go. Certain lore specifics would fit into such a document, however.

[Mephansteras]

Basic guidelines to help answer the basic questions of "Should this be in the game" and "What level of realism are we shooting for?" are good.

And I am definitely in favor of a basic guiding principle of "Realism is great as long as it does not impose too much tedium on the player". Want it to take 8 hours for my character to craft up some easy but time consuming? Sure, as long as it doesn't take more then me as a player going "Hey, character, make this thing". 

[Random_Dragon]

Thing is, if I recall CDDA already has a design document, one that's fallen a bit the wayside.

[Baijiu]

I was making good progress with a character, made it to day 12 which is different for me as I usually die on the second or third day. I may have been abusing NPCs and treating them like fodder but I did keep most of them alive. Found some skill books, was starting to skill up my character decently....

Then the game crashed and I lost my character. I haven't had the heart to open the game back up since the crash, I'm just so broken over it. Not to mention I'm kinda terrified now of the game crashing on me as it's never crashed before this. Why you treat me like this Cataclysm?

Maybe I'll just wait for the new IWBUMS release for Project Zomboid. New area has been added along with vehicles. Plus, when that game crashes I don't lose everything >_<

[Ygdrad]

I was making good progress with a character, made it to day 12 which is different for me as I usually die on the second or third day. I may have been abusing NPCs and treating them like fodder but I did keep most of them alive. Found some skill books, was starting to skill up my character decently....

Then the game crashed and I lost my character. I haven't had the heart to open the game back up since the crash, I'm just so broken over it. Not to mention I'm kinda terrified now of the game crashing on me as it's never crashed before this. Why you treat me like this Cataclysm?

Maybe I'll just wait for the new IWBUMS release for Project Zomboid. New area has been added along with vehicles. Plus, when that game crashes I don't lose everything >_<

Why don't you enable autosave? I haven't played in a while, but I'm pretty sure there's an option for the game to save when you go to bed.

[Random_Dragon]

Welp. Yet another PR that would make me want to update for the sake of testing changes to my mod becomes endangered by Kevin.

[Ygdrad]

Welp. Yet another PR that would make me want to update for the sake of testing changes to my mod becomes endangered by Kevin.

Maybe the clairvoyance artifact was not meant to fully recon rooms on the other side of a wall but just save you from opening a door and being face-to-face with something nasty. The basic range of 3 does its job well if that job is to avoid surprises at close range. Could just ask him what the intended purpose of it is, or explain that you'd be going for a change in purpose rather than just "making it better for the sake of making it better".