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Author Topic: Ore disappears when I mine it  (Read 3369 times)

Salmeuk

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Re: Ore disappears when I mine it
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2015, 02:17:18 am »

I don't really have a problem with getting enough steel made. I have a problem with completely unrealistic ferrous metalworking. You need as much flux as you do ore. This is not how it works in the real world. The in-game recipes are completely silly. Flux is mainly used for removing carbon, coke is used to add it, yet you need both, for both steps? Nope. That is not how ferrous metalworking works. Before the reverbatory furnace, the fuel used in smelting iron would introduce too much carbon, yielding pig iron as the direct product of the first step. Another step is required to make usable, non brittle wrought iron. If just the right amount of carbon could be removed in this step, steel could be made in small batches. More commonly, carbon was added back into wrought iron in a third step. The amount of flux used was minimal in comparison to the amount of ore used.

Dwarf Fortress technology is high middle ages tech, in general. At that time in the Western world, the most common process was the bloomery for producing sponge or pig iron. This was refined in a finery forge by heating and hammering to squeeze out the inclusions, producing wrought iron, or careful management of the process would result in removing the correct amount of carbon to produce steel. Outside of China, no better way of making steel was known at the time. The puddling furnace and the cementation process weren't introduced into Europe until the 1500s.

I would still consider it to be one of the more accurate depictions of metalsmithing in video games (not including games specifically meant to simulate metalworking). There's quite a few unrealistic things in Dwarf Fortress (infinite production from the same farm plot, lack of cave-ins, and the fact you can use every kind of stone in the same exact manner are a few that come to mind) so it's a bit silly to single out the steel-creation process as 'completely unrealistic', despite it coming a lot closer than 90% of games that try.
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Eldin00

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Re: Ore disappears when I mine it
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2015, 04:54:22 am »

I don't really have a problem with getting enough steel made. I have a problem with completely unrealistic ferrous metalworking. You need as much flux as you do ore. This is not how it works in the real world. The in-game recipes are completely silly. Flux is mainly used for removing carbon, coke is used to add it, yet you need both, for both steps? Nope. That is not how ferrous metalworking works. Before the reverbatory furnace, the fuel used in smelting iron would introduce too much carbon, yielding pig iron as the direct product of the first step. Another step is required to make usable, non brittle wrought iron. If just the right amount of carbon could be removed in this step, steel could be made in small batches. More commonly, carbon was added back into wrought iron in a third step. The amount of flux used was minimal in comparison to the amount of ore used.

Dwarf Fortress technology is high middle ages tech, in general. At that time in the Western world, the most common process was the bloomery for producing sponge or pig iron. This was refined in a finery forge by heating and hammering to squeeze out the inclusions, producing wrought iron, or careful management of the process would result in removing the correct amount of carbon to produce steel. Outside of China, no better way of making steel was known at the time. The puddling furnace and the cementation process weren't introduced into Europe until the 1500s.

You don't have the details of early iron/steel production quite right here. Bloomeries did not introduce significant carbon into the iron, by avoiding heating it to its melting point. The sponge was hot-worked to remove most of the remaining slag and silica impurities from the iron. Because the iron was never brought to its melting point, no flux was used in a bloomery. Until the introduction of the cementation process in the 1500's, European steelmaking a hit-or-miss process. Sometimes if a bloomery were able to be run hotter than normal, the iron would partially melt. When this happened, you would get a sponge which had steel or pig iron in it along with the wrought iron. Later, finery forges and puddling furnaces were used to remove carbon from pig iron (produced in blast furnaces from ~1200CE in Europe) to make wrought iron. Steel could also be made in this way, but without a reliable way to control how much carbon was removed, the quality of European made steel remained low.

Blast furnaces were able to heat the iron above its melting point. Molten iron absorbs carbon much more readily than the still-solid iron in the bloomery process, so when using a blast furnace, you end up with pig iron. Blast furnaces for pig iron production are generally loaded with a mixture of crushed iron ore, coke or charcoal, and crushed limestone or dolomite. The coke/charcoal helps to control the amount of carbon in the resulting pig iron, while the limestone acts as a flux. Limestone and similar fluxes do not remove carbon from the iron. The flux does make the iron flow a little more easily, and causes a larger portion of impurities like silica and sulphur compounds to separate from the iron and remain in the slag.

The earliest method of creating consistently high quality steel originated in India, possibly as early as 300BCE. The exact method of steel production is not known today, but based on a combination of what information does survive, combined with analysis of surviving samples of early Indian steel and modern attempts to recreate the process, it was most likely one of 2 different crucible steel processes. One candidate process involves mixing pig iron, flux, and an oxidizing agent (possibly crushed hematite or another iron oxide) in a crucible, and melting it. The oxidizing agent combines with carbon in the steel to form carbon monoxide which escapes as a gas, while the flux helps to remove slag and other impurities from the mix. The 2nd candidate process involves mixing wrought iron, pig iron, and flux in a crucible, putting a layer of sand or crushed glass on top, and melting. The sand or crushed glass melts, and floats to the surface, creating a barrier against carbon escaping or getting into the molten metal, while the flux aids in the mixing of the iron and pig iron, as well as helping to separate out impurities and slag from the metal.

In addition to the crucible processes mentioned above, by the 11th century, a variant of what would later be called the Bessemer process was in use in China. The bessemer process produces a very low carbon steel with few impurities, which is easier to convert into steel of the desired composition than wrought iron.

The DF process for making pig iron is similar to the blast furnace method, the primary differences being the amount of flux used, the use of iron bars instead of raw ore, and the lack of a specialized blast furnace. The DF process for making steel from pig iron is similar to the 2nd listed process for crucible steel, with the main difference being that the crucible steel uses molten glass as a vapor barrier, and does not add additional coke/charcoal to the mix.


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TheHossofMoss

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Re: Ore disappears when I mine it
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2015, 03:04:47 pm »

Had no idea there were so many people experienced with metallurgy! :o
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GhostDwemer

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Re: Ore disappears when I mine it
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2015, 03:49:17 pm »

Thanks for the more accurate information, Eldin00!
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Eldin00

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Re: Ore disappears when I mine it
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2015, 04:01:24 pm »

Happy to be of service. I'm something of a hobbyist metal worker, and have done a lot of reading on the subject in addition to a small-ish amount of practical experience. (some welding, some casting work with aluminum and brass, with a little experimentation in mixing metals to get better casting results, not always successful)
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GhostDwemer

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Re: Ore disappears when I mine it
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2015, 06:11:10 pm »

To be honest, I was getting my information from wikipedia, but their articles are somewhat contradictory and lacking in detail. Playing Dwarf Fortress has motivated me to try to educate myself on quite a variety of subjects: metallurgy, botany, zoology, medieval armed combat, and so on.
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Putnam

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Re: Ore disappears when I mine it
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2015, 07:22:03 pm »

This has been the way mining works since the previous version.

If by "the previous version" you mean "27 versions", yeah :P

(34.08 made mining the way it is now)

GhostDwemer

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Re: Ore disappears when I mine it
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2015, 05:16:40 pm »

Sorry for being pedantic here, Putnam, but that's exactly what I said, and my Nerd Honor demands I explain that I was right all along, or I risk losing my Nerd Card. You know how it is.

I think you misread or misinterpreted what I wrote. "This has been the way mining works since the previous version" means, "This has been the way mining works since the 34 version." Stone drop frequency hasn't changed between the 34 and 40 versions. In the version before that, it was skill based. If I had said, "This has been the way mining works since the 27 version" I would have been wrong, because mining was different in the 27 version.
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Putnam

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Re: Ore disappears when I mine it
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2015, 09:47:23 pm »

Mining was also different in 0.34.07, which was also a 34 version...

Also, i never said 27 version (first 3D version), just 27 versions ago.

GhostDwemer

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Re: Ore disappears when I mine it
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2015, 05:49:36 pm »

Oh I get what you were saying now. I meant "major revisions ago" not "minor releases ago." I consider version changes to be the first number, i.e. there was a version change going from 34 to 40, but going from 34.1 to 34.2 was a revision, not a version change. That's just how I'm used to talking about software packages. If it breaks backward compatibility, it's a version change and deserves a new major number. If you can use the same save files, its a revision and you increment the minor number.
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Putnam

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Re: Ore disappears when I mine it
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2015, 06:14:49 pm »

That's not what DF does, though. 0.40.03, 0.40.02 and 0.34.02 were all save-breaking releases.

GhostDwemer

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Re: Ore disappears when I mine it
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2015, 09:06:27 pm »

I'm also used to software numbering standards not being adhered to stringently.

So how would you say (hopefully more succinctly) that some change happened in the last major release? What do you call the jump from 34 to 40? I'm pretty sure I'm no the only one who talks about it in terms of "previous version."
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Putnam

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Re: Ore disappears when I mine it
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2015, 09:09:57 pm »

Except the last major release was 0.34.01 by that logic, which did not have that change...

The jump from 34 to 40 is 0.40.01.

Afghani84

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Re: Ore disappears when I mine it
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2015, 09:16:16 pm »

I smell some passive aggressiveness in this thread  :o
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Putnam

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Re: Ore disappears when I mine it
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2015, 09:52:05 pm »

Not me. I didn't notice, if there is any.
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