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[gimli]

Additionally, let's stop talking about things we can't control and start talking about things we can.  Yes, dwarf fortress only appeals to a very specific subset of gamers, but what can we do to ease the entry process?  I think that the idea of tutorials is a good one.

Yet, there are countless topics about it. The tutorials could help a help a lot as well, that is logical and it has been mentioned ages ago like 100 times...just like pretty much everything with regard to the topic. Constructive critism is okay, even if everything have been said countless times already. Most of the people can't be arsed to use the search feature. Perhaps it would be a good idea to bump the old big threads about this, but oh well. Personally I can't blame anyone for creating a new one with regard to this. Most of these topics are positive and not trollish or anything like that.

[Puzzlemaker]

Honestly, it's not the graphics as much as the interface.

The interface is cruddy.

If there was a way to add some sort of third party interface on top of dwarf fortress that would be awesome.  Doesn't even have to update the graphics, and I think it could probably be done right now. 

I mean, for a lot of it there already are third party interfaces, like Dwarf Therapist and the like.  Ideally that could be expanded.

[Button]

You know what? I disagree. I don't think we need to increase the rate of new Dwarf Fortress players.

Toady is making a decent living doing what he loves. The current rate of new player accumulation is sufficient to support him and provide him with annual raises above inflation. He's made it clear that he will not hire more developers, so increased donations would have no real effect on the game.

However, the influx of new players would have an effect on the community. There's only so many new people per month a community can absorb. Think the Eternal September, or the way Minecraft fan boards devolved from intelligent discussion into shouting, whining twelve year olds.

So, increasing DF's mass appeal wouldn't have positive effects on the game or on the community. And since Toady has made it clear that he values his vision of the game over the potential positive effects on his own cash flow, I think we should respect that.

[gimli]

Toady is making a decent living doing what he loves. The current rate of new player accumulation is sufficient to support him and provide him with annual raises above inflation. He's made it clear that he will not hire more developers, so increased donations would have no real effect on the game.

I think it's logical, isn't it? It would be still 1 developer working full-time on the game. Toady is working on the game full-time already. Read my reply with regard to this, and it sums up what Toady has said many years ago. It was absolutely logical what he has said back in those days. [Not enough donators/donations = more focus on the gui & gfx parts of the game to attract more players.]

[Sanctume]

For those in the "need graphics" bandwagon, keep in mind that the core of DF is simulating the world. 
For those who has suffered with FPS death, can blame all these world calculations from a falling log that causes cave-in far below that you have not even open line of sight yet. 

And to take a game like Rimworld using basic graphics developer kit, is not an apples to apples comparison.

RimWorld takes a smaller scope of tracking finite objects, and then feeding that to the engine (Unity / Unreal?).
Shit, I don't think an graphics engine like that can render a playable FPS to simulate the many parts of a creature that can procedurally be change their status.

I mean, look for an instance of a minecart shotgun full of various gold crafts.  A golden scepter not only hits a troll, but shows details of punching through its large tunic, breaking a false rib, causing the troll to skid back.  The same scepter continues it destruction decapitating a goblin 3 tiles behind and to the right of the first troll.  But we're not finished, because the gold scepter ends up lodge in the marble block wall that is now smeared in blue troll blood.

In Rimworld.  Shoot pistol, miss, miss, hit, hit, target down.  Cursor over to target, bleeding, left lung punctured, left kidney missing.

That's the difference.  DF has ability to 1 step simulation, and keep track of the objects in its x,y,z coordinates.
No current affordable 3D graphics engine, if any, is optimized enough, to crunch and simulate and render all of that in 1-step meaningful display.
Perhaps not even a CPU fast enough to do so.

It's possible to simulate a subset of those objects, and that's how those other games approach it.  It's DF like, but sacrificing the depth of details.

Likewise, when objects are limited, it is then manageable to create a UI for the many possible decision-trees.
DF does not compromise the number of those simulated creatures.  You have 100 dwarf, 100 goblins, 100 pets, a megabeast spewing syndrome on all 300, all 300 will have to calculate those effects.

[Inarius]

I think that we speak of two very different things.
On the one hand, graphics.
On the other hand, a better UI. A better UI doesn't mean "graphics". It means something you can use easier. Seriously, do you think that the current state of play for quests is good ? Taking, tracking and following quest, managing different quests, telling people (it was inevitable), etc ?
Or, managing military in fortress mode ? Of course, you can master it. I did. Many did. But, well, why so much complexity ?! Is it really necessary ? I don't speak of system of wheels, tubes, or just refilling in a well. There is a sort of "no pain, no gain" spirit here, and I don't see why the UI should be necessarily punishing. The game itself is punishing, but from a good perspective (because you made mistakes). But taking 5 minutes, when you begin, just to make a hole, is frustrating. Especially at the beginning, you are likely to stop, and never try again. Especially if it's the fifth time, in 30 minutes !

I perfectly understand the elitism of people who have already mastered this game. But it's not because some people cannot/don't want to manage so many illogical keyboard shortcut or infinite lists of things/events that they "don't deserve" the game, or that they would necessary be 12-years whinning noobs polluting our quiet community. The graphical austerity of the game is protecting us very well from them.

And I don't speak for myself, I had pleasure to learn this useless complexity. Many of us did. But I think that many "good players", who would also be very interested and would love this game if they could try it without this obstacles.

[Putnam]

There are no quests. Dwarf Fortress has no quests as of the latest version. I have no idea why people still insist on saying there are quests. It's actually a really big problem that people think there are, because it makes an unfair expectation of what's to come.

[Robsoie]

Yes, the immense majority of the quest system from 34.11 and previous has been replaced in 40.x by a rumour system, with NPC telling you how much they're harrassed by bandits, megabeast or whatever.

Unlike in the quest system, the NPC don't actually expect you to do anything about it actually, as even if you go and get rid/solve the problem, all you'll hear in front of you reporting to anyone on how you saved the day/solved whatever problem is that the NPC will disapointingly tell you "it was inevitable" and that's it.

I really miss the quest system as the rumour system is really feeling unfinished currently.

The only rumour that seems to actually work great is when a NPC tells you about kids having been abducted, you can find those kids in goblin sites, free them and bring them back to their relatives, probably the only 40.x rumour that has a proper conclusion that does not include that depressing "it was inevitable".

Now that said, there are still quests that are sometime (not always) given to you by a lord/lady only if you are his/her heartperson, you will be tasked to create trouble in another faction :
www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145627.msg5803632
never managed to have this quest completed.

[Putnam]

They say some other things sometimes, if they actually care. Like if you kill their leader and tell them so, they'll say "that is terrible".

[smakemupagus]

I think there is room for improvement in the UI, obviously (I use therapist and a few DFHack interface add ons), but there is also a lot about the vanilla interface that is pretty good.  Just my opinion.

[4maskwolf]

To those of you grousing about the military screen: the basics of setting up a military aren't that hard.  You need to know how to create squads (which I did without checking the wiki), how to set the squads to train, how to override their civilian clothes with their uniform (and that's optional), and how to command them from the squads menu.  Everything else is unnecessary for a fully functioning military, although it can be tweaked a little bit to fit the goals of a particular fortress, that's more advanced stuff that isn't at all required.

The wiki actually is a problem here in that it makes the whole issue seem FAR more complicated than it actually is by dumping every option and optimization on the reader at once, swamping them with information.

[Terff]

Heh the reason I started playing was the graphics that intrigued me.  This game doesn't need fancy graphics, it has plenty of fine aesthetics (see:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oK8UTRgvJU).  All I want is for the game itself to further expand and become better.

[Urist McVoyager]

We just need to keep spreading the word. Any time I see a minecraft player buying a guide at work, I mention DF and that it's free. I tell them what it is, so they know ahead of time what they'd be getting into, and usually write down the URL for them so they can find it, and these forums.

I got into this game because I continually saw players at TVTropes talking about it. I read the Tropes page for it, and eventually came to the site and downloaded it myself. I grabbed a tutorial from a random blog, and partially used it to guide me along the way. I couldn't even figure out what the Hell was going on during my first time playing, so I read the tutorial some and ran a fortress into the ground from not having farms.

Overall, I've had a fun DF career. We just need to show other players how much fun they can have too.

[mifki]

I'd like to empahise (again) one thing.
Currently with the help of dfhack, we can implement _any_ custom graphics and UI for Dwarf Fortress. I'm doing what I can in my plugins (and other devs are doing in theirs) but much more can be done. Yes, it's dfhack but who cares, dfhack doesn't necessarily mean cheating or anything like that.

If you think Toady should focus on the core (and that's what he's doing), but want better UI/graphics - let's cooperate and make it. Who knows, maybe later Toady would incorporate it in vanilla. Even if you can't code but have ideas for example for one of my projects or can help with graphics, this will be more useful than 100th thread about the need of better UI.

I personally think there are certanly things to improve, but mostly to fix some of the limitations and unfinished stuff, like more tiles, better tiles, better rendering, better user experience on many screens. I definitely think we don't need 3D, mouse control and some other "modern" stuff. Oh and no, better graphics won't affect performance and not related to the deepness of the simulation.

[gimli]

I'd like to empahise (again) one thing.
Currently with the help of dfhack, we can implement _any_ custom graphics and UI for Dwarf Fortress. I'm doing what I can in my plugins (and other devs are doing in theirs) but much more can be done. Yes, it's dfhack but who cares, dfhack doesn't necessarily mean cheating or anything like that.

If you think Toady should focus on the core (and that's what he's doing), but want better UI/graphics - let's cooperate and make it. Who knows, maybe later Toady would incorporate it in vanilla. Even if you can't code but have ideas for example for one of my projects or can help with graphics, this will be more useful than 100th thread about the need of better UI.

I personally think there are certanly things to improve, but mostly to fix some of the limitations and unfinished stuff, like more tiles, better tiles, better rendering, better user experience on many screens. I definitely think we don't need 3D, mouse control and some other "modern" stuff. Oh and no, better graphics won't affect performance and not related to the deepness of the simulation.

Your TWBT mod looks promising indeed.

For those in the "need graphics" bandwagon, keep in mind that the core of DF is simulating the world. 
For those who has suffered with FPS death, can blame all these world calculations from a falling log that causes cave-in far below that you have not even open line of sight yet. 

And to take a game like Rimworld using basic graphics developer kit, is not an apples to apples comparison.

RimWorld takes a smaller scope of tracking finite objects, and then feeding that to the engine (Unity / Unreal?).
Shit, I don't think an graphics engine like that can render a playable FPS to simulate the many parts of a creature that can procedurally be change their status.

I mean, look for an instance of a minecart shotgun full of various gold crafts.  A golden scepter not only hits a troll, but shows details of punching through its large tunic, breaking a false rib, causing the troll to skid back.  The same scepter continues it destruction decapitating a goblin 3 tiles behind and to the right of the first troll.  But we're not finished, because the gold scepter ends up lodge in the marble block wall that is now smeared in blue troll blood.

In Rimworld.  Shoot pistol, miss, miss, hit, hit, target down.  Cursor over to target, bleeding, left lung punctured, left kidney missing.

That's the difference.  DF has ability to 1 step simulation, and keep track of the objects in its x,y,z coordinates.
No current affordable 3D graphics engine, if any, is optimized enough, to crunch and simulate and render all of that in 1-step meaningful display.
Perhaps not even a CPU fast enough to do so.

It's possible to simulate a subset of those objects, and that's how those other games approach it.  It's DF like, but sacrificing the depth of details.

Likewise, when objects are limited, it is then manageable to create a UI for the many possible decision-trees.
DF does not compromise the number of those simulated creatures.  You have 100 dwarf, 100 goblins, 100 pets, a megabeast spewing syndrome on all 300, all 300 will have to calculate those effects.

Sure, it's a game inspired by DF. It is not as complex, but keep in mind, it was Kickstarted in 2013, so basically it's in development for 2 years. The developer is doing a decent job with the updates. If he won't stop updating the game at this speed, it might have DF complexity level in a few years.