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[Puzzlemaker]

Wait, does CL give you mutagen?

[Toaster]

No, but it gives you larvae, which you can turn into meat, which turns into territory, which turns into mutagen.

[Xantalos]

That might be post ascension. For me, it's that it gives me larvae, which I can make into either meat producing or territory producing units, which then produce more meat/territory, which I can use to purchase upgrades to make my larvae get produced faster, which gives me mutagen.

[miauw62]

I have about a hundred hive expresses now, and a billion hive queens. I do seem to have hit some sort of wall, since this really isn't getting off the ground. Should I start thinking about ascending? Which upgrades should I buy?

[Neonivek]

You won't start getting some serious Hive Queens for a while, right now the only reason you will buy Hive Empresses is to get the "Twin Hive Queen" upgrade.

It also depends on how many hives you have as well. You want to get enough Hive Queens so that you get more Hives then you can spend.

[Xantalos]

You're at around the same level as me, then. Just accumulate enough larvae that you can spam Clone Larvae and try to accumulate at least 10 million mutagen, according to Toaster. Then ascend.

[miauw62]

What upgrades should I pick once I ascend, though?

[Toaster]

There's several worthwhile strategies.

I did a reduced version of that, basically just steps two and three.  This left me an extra respec that I can spend on after my second ascension to get the mutagen mutations again before I ascend for the third time.  Once I ascend this time I'll have enough mutation slots that I can just keep meta and frequency and not worry about respeccing.

[Criptfeind]

I feel like clone mutation is pretty rocking. I've gotten to the point where, despite pumping my territory getting dudes, my larva income isn't really significant. Since I clone just so many larva. With only a million mutation points in clone larva I clone over 11 days income of larva every, like, two hours or something. Although it feels like a quarter to a half of the clones go back into cocoons to make more clones, that still leaves me with tons of larva. Although right now I've found myself in a weird cycle where it's generally not really significant to actually buy anything but the top teir unit I am working on with larva, since the amount I can make is insignificant next to how much is naturally produced, so I save up a ton of larvae until the tipping point comes and the top teir unit is making make lower teir stuff for me to spend more larva on it then I make, so I dump all my larva into them, which rockets them up high enough that when I switch to the next teir, it suddenly becomes insignificant to buy more of the unit I was just buying because so many are being naturally made. It's a weird cycle, but it seems to be going a lot faster then the last ascension.

[Seriyu]

So nothing I do (besides magic, obviously) seems to make my larva upgrade meters move any faster or jump forward or anything. Am I doing it wrong or is that just how it works?

[Arx]

The higher form of territory producers are pretty good for that, I think.

I typically leave it running for ages, then return and clone larvae and use them to produce masses of whatever I like, so I do get big jumps.

[Micro102]

I would expect that the longer you wait to clone larva, the more hatchery mutations will become more valuable, and clone mutations will become less valuable, assuming you choose one of the 2.

[Neonivek]

I would expect that the longer you wait to clone larva, the more hatchery mutations will become more valuable, and clone mutations will become less valuable, assuming you choose one of the 2.

Clone never loses its value and the hatchery mutation stacks with it.

Swampwalk with the upgrade might outclass it later on mind you.

[Micro102]

I would expect that the longer you wait to clone larva, the more hatchery mutations will become more valuable, and clone mutations will become less valuable, assuming you choose one of the 2.

Clone never loses its value and the hatchery mutation stacks with it.

Swampwalk with the upgrade might outclass it later on mind you.

Well no... A hatchery mutation adds X amount of larva over Y amount of time. Clone larva adds a multiplication modifier. If you have to pick one or the other, than hatcheries will build up over time, while the multiplier will always multiply. Imagine you just started playing the game and had infinite energy limits. You could buy a billion hatchery upgrades, or a billion clone upgrades, and you were going to wait for a billion years. Doesn't it seem reasonably to select the billion hatcheries? You won't get the clone modifier, but you will have many more larva to clone in the first place.

[Kjara]

Not exactly sure how the exact costs works yet on the mutations, but assume that you have enough mutagen to increase either your base rate by 10x, your clone rate by 10x or both by 5x.  Since they stack multiplicatively... note that 5*5 = 25 > 10.

 The above assumes that the cost doesn't increase as you increase the multiplier and that they both increase by the same multiplier for a given quantity of mutagen, both of which are probably false, but although these might it might change the optimal point slightly, still leaves you with a setting that except in the edge case where the initial cost is too prohibitive, but since we are arguing in the limit, we can disregard initial costs. For stacking one to be better than splitting between both, the total cost function would have to be strongly sublinear.