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Author Topic: About that Nickel Stuff...  (Read 8107 times)

Ops Fox

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Re: About that Nickel Stuff...
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2015, 01:58:05 am »

Or even any consideration whatsoever. Dwarf Fortress doesn't even included hardness at all.

Typically I would say yeah, thats where real life and the game differ. But dwarf fortress isnt typical, One Day it will acuractly model all of a materials qualities, which is a beautiful thought. So maybe hardness doesnt matter now but one day It will be given its dues and on that day we the players will abuse every quirk and are dwarfs shall defy all logic.
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Putnam

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« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 04:45:35 am by Putnam »
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Grimlocke

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Re: About that Nickel Stuff...
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2015, 04:41:23 am »

Hard, inflexible materials tend to make fairly terrible swords, axes, armor, etc. There is a reason nobody used rock armor or cast iron swords.

A lot of cutlery and stuff does get made from various nickel steels, but that is because they don't cut anything very hard and are all fairly small.

Damascus knives (by the modern definition of Damascus steel that is) have nickel steel in them because its very resistant to corrosion, and etching acids by extension. They layer it in with some carbon steel, fold and warp it about, forge it into a knife and then dip it in etching acid. The nickel steel stays light and shiny while the carbon steel turns darker and you get some really fancy patterns.

It is however done just for aesthetics, and purely a modern thing. Historically pattern-welding was done with just various qualities of wrought iron and steel and if there was any good quality steel available they would use that in pure form for the edge, welding it onto a pattern-welded body.

Though then again, DF has no concept of wear and breakage of weapons and armor and while the values in the raws generally correspond to reality, the emergent game behaviours often... doesn't.

There is also some modern steels that use nickel with... chromium or cobalt, not sure which. They are used for jet engine blades, so it should be fairly solid stuff. Its way, way beyond DF's tech level though.
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Dirst

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Re: About that Nickel Stuff...
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2015, 09:05:50 am »

There is also some modern steels that use nickel with... chromium or cobalt, not sure which. They are used for jet engine blades, so it should be fairly solid stuff. Its way, way beyond DF's tech level though.
When GE can make a Forgotten Beast out of amethyst that spew deadly dust, we'll have a conversation about who has better tech ;)
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: About that Nickel Stuff...
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2015, 09:39:45 am »

I'll challenge the "nobody uses rock armor or weapons" bit, currently the best/sharpest/longest lasting cutlery knives I have found are ceramic, they keep their edge and that edge is sharp as hell.
Now into armor, I know the Chinese (maybe it was just cerimonial in which case forget this part) have made sets in the hundreds of stone armor but it was like scale male with stone instead of metal. It'd be bulky but you could probably break the other guy's sword if they hit it and I don't think spears/arrows would fair too well against it either.

Fake edit: does ceramics count as stone? :p if not forget this whole post
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Sanctume

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Re: About that Nickel Stuff...
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2015, 02:56:56 pm »

Ceramic knives sure will hold their edge because it is used against soft meat. 
I doubt it will keep its sharpness when it hits metal armor, or bone?
Are there ceramic butcher knives?

Eldin00

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Re: About that Nickel Stuff...
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2015, 03:11:13 pm »

In addition to the points raised by Sanctume, even though certain stones are somewhat ceramic-like, ceramic really isn't the same as stone.

That being said, early human history is littered with stone arrowheads, spearheads, and knives. Obsidian or flint can provide an incredibly sharp edge, but use of stone in this capacity died out in pretty much every culture which figured out how to find and smelt metals (usually copper, frequently with enough impurities in the ore that the copper was more like a mild bronze) which could replace them, because while the stone tools/weapons may be sharper, they are also much more difficult to make than cast metal items, and much more readily breakable.
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: About that Nickel Stuff...
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2015, 03:26:23 pm »

Ceramic knives sure will hold their edge because it is used against soft meat. 
I doubt it will keep its sharpness when it hits metal armor, or bone?
Are there ceramic butcher knives?

If you get the good ones you can chop at a metal bar without lossing it's edge
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BoredVirulence

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Re: About that Nickel Stuff...
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2015, 01:28:41 pm »

Ceramic knives sure will hold their edge because it is used against soft meat. 
I doubt it will keep its sharpness when it hits metal armor, or bone?
Are there ceramic butcher knives?

If you get the good ones you can chop at a metal bar without lossing it's edge
Without loosing its edge? Or without snapping in half? We're talking about very hard, very brittle stuff. It keeps an edge very well, it also chips easily. Ceramic knives are cool, but they don't even recommend using glass cutting boards. My chips of obsidian (Because I just happen to have some here with me) are sharper than your most knives you'll ever own, but weapons grade they are not.
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: About that Nickel Stuff...
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2015, 02:57:18 pm »

Well the demonstration showed them chopping at a metal bar with it then cutting stuff with ease.
I didn't say it was weapons grade but it lasts forever.

Obsidian and ceramics are two entirely different things though.
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Putnam

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Re: About that Nickel Stuff...
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2015, 04:01:04 pm »

"Metal bar" seems oddly non-specific.

Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: About that Nickel Stuff...
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2015, 04:21:13 pm »

I think it was a bar of steel or an iron rebar.
I was unspecific because I don't remember.
It didn't cut into way into it but it did leave Knicks in it IIRC
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Vattic

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Re: About that Nickel Stuff...
« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2015, 03:37:35 am »

I find that hard to believe as my Mum got given a ceramic knife set which said not to cut bones in the instructions. Her partner managed to shatter one of them later. Maybe there are different sorts.
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: About that Nickel Stuff...
« Reply #43 on: April 08, 2015, 06:41:19 am »

Maybe it was just a convincing infomercial. I unno
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Ops Fox

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Re: About that Nickel Stuff...
« Reply #44 on: April 08, 2015, 09:46:01 am »

Ceramics are a type of materal like alloys, they have a wide range of properties with only a few common points. Most of those common points are are not even simulated by DF such as electrical and heat conductivity.  The only property we would see would be thier hardness which is a minor facet of what makes cermerics useful.
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