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[Peradon]

Nerjin: With your RL stuff going on, can you handle this? You havent posted hardly anything, and you claim RL stuff. If you cant handle it, please replace out. If you can, please say so, and post more. My vote stays on you until you say something more substantial. I dont want this to be a lurk to victory.

Cryxis: If you can handle this, perhaps you could post your thoughts on people so far. Anything, really, just make it a little larger than two lines.


So, I'll post my reads so far:

Scummiest

Nerjin: Isnt posting. He said that he would be busy for about 3 days, but those days are past now, and he still isnt posting. Scum read.
ggamer: Here for the roo bandwagon and lurking. He looks like he can organise his thoughts, and hasnt claimed that he is having trouble with this. Scum-null read.
Hector: Buddying pretty much. I dont know if I was seeing things there or not, but I dont like it. He's hunting a little though. Scum-null.
Cryxis: Coming across as a noob. Newb read.
UXLZ: Fairly null. He's been posting quite a bit, but not really asking questions.
Jack A T: Been scumhunting the most out of us. Town-null read.

Towniest

[UXLZ]

Blech, sorry, I've been in town all day (11 hours) and only just got back. I'll try and post something tomorrow.)

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Ya I seriously don't know what to think of the other players, I don't know what I'm doing to analyze them.

[Peradon]

Ya I seriously don't know what to think of the other players, I don't know what I'm doing to analyze them.

Do you have any thoughts about who might be mafia? If so, why?

[Nerjin]

Alright children, I’m back from a long leave of whatever because it’s Spring Break now and I can try to dedicate more time to this. Sorry about all the life that happened.
Okay people keep getting on me over my lack of activity. Most of my week looked like this:

Wake Up: 7:30
Leave for School: 7:45-ish
Arrive at School: 8:45-ish
Classes: 9-12-ish
No Computer Access: 12-2-ish
Home: 3-ish
Leave Home: 5:45
Work: 6-10
Leave Work: 10
Home: 10:15
Shower: 10:20
Sleep: 11-ish.

So I’m sorry about that but can ya please get off my back over this? I didn’t choose to work that often. I usually only work 2 days a week [because I only need to work that much] but this week a bunch of people quit so I didn’t have the opportunity to play as much as I like. After this I will not be addressing questions about my lurk status in this post.

Spoiler: Question for Nerjin (click to show/hide)

Nerjin: Do you see the buddying that I mentioned, or am I just seeing things?

Here's what I saw: Hector said you seemed town enough for the time being. You flipped out and accused him of buddying you. Now you're just sorta rolling with it. I honestly do not see where you are coming from at all. He said one thing and you accuse him of buddying.

Clarify/expand, please.

I replaced the bolded part in Jack’s original question with the full quote of mine and Peradon’s for context. What I mean with this is that Peradon took his buddy claim and, despite it being somewhat easily shot down [and having it done so a few times], kept working with it as though it were a tried and true claim.

He stuck with his buddying claim for several RL days before him and Hector eventually mashed out what the other had been saying. To me it felt more like a ‘Oh no! I messed up. No, just keep going with it and maybe they’ll believe me. Repeat a lie often enough and you can get anyone to believe anything.’

I’m still leaning towards that read of Peradon’s case is the thing. He’s a far better player than that.

Spoiler: Cryxis (click to show/hide)

I just realized I’ve been doing your name wrong the whole time. Whoops… Sorry about that.

It was vague because it was a random vote, it was vague reasoning because I barely had any besides everyone else voting them out so they must be scummy in some way.

Hm… By the end of the day you should have some sort of read on who might be scum. Again, it’s an easy mistake to make your first day but just go out there and do your best okay? Even if you fail it’s a learning experience. You’ll never learn if you just ride off of other people’s cases. In fact, you’ll not enjoy the game at all [like you are currently]. I understand what it’s like to get overwhelmed on the first couple of games. We all do. Just keep trying.

Another reason you shouldn’t rely on others to hunt for you is that it looks really scummy and WILL get you lynched in an actual game.

Spoiler: GGgamer (click to show/hide)

Alright, a couple things that jumped out to me in D2 as sorta suspicious.

Roo's behaviour was anti-town, at best. They were encouraging people to vote for me sans evidence, which is what I initially thought was scummy about it.

So, Hector, you voted for roo because he was encouraging people to vote for you? I get that you might have been worried that he would start a bandwagon, but you should have enough experience to know that - at least the experienced players - would start looking for substantial evidence before they voted you.

Allow me to quote something you missed.

Roo's behaviour was anti-town, at best. They were encouraging people to vote for me sans evidence, which is what I initially thought was scummy about it.

Hector didn’t express fear that Roo was doing this. He expressed suspicion because Roo was trying to get a bandwagon going on him for no reason. You quoted it but must have missed it. Trying to lynch someone with no evidence is VERY scum appearing.

Spoiler: Peradon (click to show/hide)

Apologies, I get quite verbose when I try to explain things sometimes.

The reasons Peradon gave when they voted for me felt very light [. . .] when in the same post he names two other players he sees as scummier. He explained that away by saying it was in the context of the question [. . .].

Why are you not convinced? Do you not answer questions in context of the question?

Usually when one answers questions it is in a logical manner. You just seem to cry wolf [har har har] and leave it alone hoping that we’ll accept that Hector is buddying you. You're better than this. We all know you are. Why are you trying to act like this is the best you can do?

I didn't understand how I was buddying by town-reading him, and I don't see buddying as a scum-tell either. He's quite clearly misinterpreting my town-read of him; he thinks I won't ever see him as scum because of it.

I understand that it was a temporary read. But thats part of what makes me [worry]: that makes no sense. Why would you set up a temporary read? It does nothing at all.

It means he temporarily found you town. Glad I could sink your whole case by pointing out basic logic.

So here is what the experianced people have said about the buddying:

UXLZ: Can see it.
Nerjin: Can not see it.
Jack: Can not see it.

Lets assume that Hector is a scum trying to buddy. Either Jack lied about not seeing it, or Nerjin lied about not seeing it. The one who lied about is scum, and UXLZ is town.
If Hector is not scum, and was not buddying, then UXLZ is trying to get me to pursue a town, and is thus scum.
I'm tending to think right now that hector is not scum.
There are holes in this argument though, so thats why I didnt post it.

The hole in the argument, by the way, is that it sets up a few false dichotomies. It's also possible the UXLZ honestly sees the buddying while me and Jack do not. Not holding this against you, just pointing it out because False Dichotomies are really easy traps to fall into. I like to call it the Vizzinni Principle personally. Always remember that the right choice might not be one of the presented options. Take a step away from the situation and assume ALL  the choices presented are wrong. What do you do now? Try to find what makes sense.

After that you read the original options as possibilities. Do they still make the most sense?

I'm going to vote for Nerjin. He didnt really give a good explanation for his vote on roo, which comeing from an IC, I see as suspicous.

Also, I might not get a chance to post again before the end of the day, so I wanted to cast my vote now. Also, do note that we are all voting for different people, and unless we have a majority by the end of the day, we get a No-Lynch.

Something you didn't really help by voting me but day got extended so it's all good.

Anyways: I explained that I voted Roo because he was acting very anti-town with his Blabbering [or apparently culture clash and flailing under pressure which I can't really blame him for knowing what I do now.] Cases that made no sense.

I find it interesting that you posted that not too terribly long before day end. Trying to make sure you had an out in case your no-lynch plan didn’t work?

Unvote I don’t know if I’m right here but I think maybe Cryxis really is just having a bunch of issues in the game. I don’t know. I’ll try re-reading the thread either today or tomorrow and see if I can’t spot anything I missed.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

No I don't know who is mafia, I don't have any guesses either.

[Peradon]

Why are you not convinced? Do you not answer questions in context of the question?

Usually when one answers questions it is in a logical manner. You just seem to cry wolf [har har har] and leave it alone hoping that we’ll accept that Hector is buddying you. You're better than this. We all know you are. Why are you trying to act like this is the best you can do?

What? You arent making sense here. I pointed out that I always answer questions in context of the question, and asking him if he does the same, because he was judging, saying that it wasnt in context of the question.

I dont understand your logic. Why would this not be the best I can do? I'm defending myself based what actually happened.

Maybe I just dont understand what you're saying. Please elaborate.

I understand that it was a temporary read. But thats part of what makes me [worry]: that makes no sense. Why would you set up a temporary read? It does nothing at all.

It means he temporarily found you town. Glad I could sink your whole case by pointing out basic logic.

And explain to me how a temporary read makes sense? Its closing your mind and not taking into concideration that I could be scum. What that looks like to me is that he "temporaraly" trusts me, based on very little evidence. I didnt like this.

You want to know the real reason I backed off of him? It was partly because I was reading the theory on buddying, and it said that it is equally a town tell as it is a scum tell. That, and I realised I gave him a slight town read also due to his activity.

Something you didn't really help by voting me but day got extended so it's all good.

Anyways: I explained that I voted Roo because he was acting very anti-town with his Blabbering [or apparently culture clash and flailing under pressure which I can't really blame him for knowing what I do now.] Cases that made no sense.

I put my vote on who seems the most scummy to me so far, which is you. I forgot about the extend also...

As people have said several times, anti-town does not mean scum. Did you think he was scum or town?

I find it interesting that you posted that not too terribly long before day end. Trying to make sure you had an out in case your no-lynch plan didn’t work?

No, I posted that because you are the most scummy person I see. The fact that it was close to day end was coincidence.


By the language you are using, you seem awefully convinced that I'm scum. If thats so, why not just vote for me?
Also, what exactly is your case against me?

No I don't know who is mafia, I don't have any guesses either.

Do you have any thoughts on who might be town?

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Ggamer and UXLZ maybe? If I had to take a guess
I don't know .-.

[Peradon]

Ggamer and UXLZ maybe? If I had to take a guess
I don't know .-.

Any reason in particular?

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Not really :/
Just seems like a safe guess for no reason in particular .-.

[UXLZ]

Mm... Apologies for taking so long to get this up.

UXLZ, you've had time to go over the game, but you're being very reactive, answering questions but not asking anything. You don't seem to be doing much, if any, scumhunting. Why is that?

Most of the things that I would be scumhunting for (e.g. what Cryxis is doing) aren't really reliable in a newbie game. There's stuff I could push on but it's mostly going to lead to a bunch of false-positives. I'd actually consider scumhunting in a newbie game harder than doing so in a game full of experienced players, simply because you have to try and take the newbiness into account...

And explain to me how a temporary read makes sense? Its closing your mind and not taking into concideration that I could be scum. What that looks like to me is that he "temporaraly" trusts me, based on very little evidence. I didnt like this.

I believe it's already been explained, but reads are by their nature temporary. A town read for example, rather than saying 'I'm not considering that you're scum' says 'Your actions thus far incline me to believe that you're town.'
It would be more concerning to see reads that were not temporary, if I'm honest.

Blech, seeing as the day will likely end by the time I wake up tomorrow, I'm going to vote for Peradon. He's not giving me flagrant !!!newbie reads as Cryxis and Gamer are (though that may be my own failure) and I feel like his behavior is scummy enough to warrant a vote. Unfortunately, it still isn't a particularly strong read and if it weren't for the deadline coming up I probably wouldn't be voting, it's just the 'strongest' at the moment... He was at the top of my reads list, and hasn't really done anything to convince me otherwise.

I'm really playing quite weakly this game, sorry about that.

[ggamer]

i'll go through D1 tonight and post, i've just got some homework do do first

[Peradon]

And explain to me how a temporary read makes sense? Its closing your mind and not taking into concideration that I could be scum. What that looks like to me is that he "temporaraly" trusts me, based on very little evidence. I didnt like this.

I believe it's already been explained, but reads are by their nature temporary. A town read for example, rather than saying 'I'm not considering that you're scum' says 'Your actions thus far incline me to believe that you're town.'
It would be more concerning to see reads that were not temporary, if I'm honest.

You arent understanding me. What I mean by temporary, is that the read automatically expires after a certain amount of time. In this case, hector was saying that it would expire as soon as people started posting again. To set up a read like that does absolutley nothing but close your mind for that time.

[hector13]

And explain to me how a temporary read makes sense? Its closing your mind and not taking into concideration that I could be scum. What that looks like to me is that he "temporaraly" trusts me, based on very little evidence. I didnt like this.

I believe it's already been explained, but reads are by their nature temporary. A town read for example, rather than saying 'I'm not considering that you're scum' says 'Your actions thus far incline me to believe that you're town.'
It would be more concerning to see reads that were not temporary, if I'm honest.

You arent understanding me. What I mean by temporary, is that the read automatically expires after a certain amount of time. In this case, hector was saying that it would expire as soon as people started posting again. To set up a read like that does absolutley nothing but close your mind for that time.

How do you know what was going through my mind? I don't like how you appear to be trying to convince everyone about my thought processes when you can't possibly know that much about them. You can assume, yes, but that's a foolish thing to do when I can just go "er... no"

It would be more accurate to describe it as relative rather than temporary. You were the only person I had a read on because you were the only person posting. Given the situation (every town on the wagon D1, not much else beyond my argument with roo to analyse) I thought a scum player wouldn't want to encourage everyone else to get active and scum hunt. This is not to say that I would refuse to consider you as scum, but based on that, you were getting towncred.

Considering you thought I was buddying you and proceeded to vote for me based on that, you get scumcred, so you're sitting around a scum-lean for me.

I don't have enough of a read on the other players to feel comfortable saying categorically that someone is or is not scum, which is why I'm not going to vote unless there is a great rash of activity between now and the deadline. I'd prefer to extend again (I think we can have two per day) seeing as not much has happened since the last one (13 posts, by my count) and not everyone has posted (or posted anything informative)

[Nerjin]

Okay. Maybe we need to explain in detail what we each think one means when they say "Temporary Read" because this is getting really old. Everyone else understands this Peradon.

Temporary Read = The feeling that the person in question belongs to a certain alignment based on evidence that available at the time.

Allow me to explain deeper.

Hector viewed you as town because you were active and making sense with your reads. So he said that he read you as town. IGNORE THE FACT THAT HE SAID TEMPORARY! It is a flavor word in the gist of what he said. It didn't matter. He didn't say "I am ignoring the fact that you could ever be scum" or "You are 100% town and I will never change my mind" or "Golly gee Peradon you are such a swell town fellow".

He only said that he viewed you as town at the moment. Reads change. Eternal reads are wrong reads.

You arent understanding me. What I mean by temporary, is that the read automatically expires after a certain amount of time. In this case, hector was saying that it would expire as soon as people started posting again. To set up a read like that does absolutley nothing but close your mind for that time.

No... We all understand what you're saying. You just won't listen. Temporary, in the context he used it, would be akin to saying current. In this context what he said was that you seemed most town out of everyone for now. He didn't say he was closing his mind or ignoring evidence. He thought you were town BECAUSE of evidence. Dude! BRO! You are smart. I know you are smart. You are good at this game. Please understand this so we can move on! Did I explain adequately? DO I NEED TO ELABORATE!!!?