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[therahedwig]

That would imply that printing itself is the cause of technological revolution. Don't forget that the scientific revolution was more caused by the discovery of the new world and how it's existence negated so much previous knowledge that people felt they had to start from scratch, and in doing so they tried coming up with solid methods, such as empiricism and rationalism.

Book printing itself just allowed for less copying errors and cheaper books. It's more likely to cause civil revolutions because the literate class becomes so big and knowledgeable that it can fight the aristocracy, than a scientific revolution by itself.

[GoblinCookie]

That would imply that printing itself is the cause of technological revolution. Don't forget that the scientific revolution was more caused by the discovery of the new world and how it's existence negated so much previous knowledge that people felt they had to start from scratch, and in doing so they tried coming up with solid methods, such as empiricism and rationalism.

Book printing itself just allowed for less copying errors and cheaper books. It's more likely to cause civil revolutions because the literate class becomes so big and knowledgeable that it can fight the aristocracy, than a scientific revolution by itself.

You talk as if the discovery of the new world causing the technological revolution was some kind of historical fact (don't forget).  I do not think that what you say is true simply because there were no existing ideas that hinged on the nonexistance of the new world. 

What caused the technological revolution I think was the Rennaisance+Book Printing.  The Rennaisance dug up ideas that had been suppressed before and book printing prevented those ideas from being suppressed all over again.  Starting from scratch is certainly not what they did, they dug up old ideas and developed on them. 

[Deboche]

I think it's a bit fruitless to argue about that. We just have to discuss how advanced the dwarven paper industry is.

If we decide dwarves should have the printing press, a good way to explain why it doesn't start a golden age of technological development is that dwarven settlements are far apart and communication between them is very limited. You can't get a good exchange of ideas going if you have to wait a full year for news.

[therahedwig]

You talk as if the discovery of the new world causing the technological revolution was some kind of historical fact (don't forget).  I do not think that what you say is true simply because there were no existing ideas that hinged on the nonexistance of the new world. 

What caused the technological revolution I think was the Rennaisance+Book Printing.  The Rennaisance dug up ideas that had been suppressed before and book printing prevented those ideas from being suppressed all over again.  Starting from scratch is certainly not what they did, they dug up old ideas and developed on them. 

Ah, I forgot about the rennaisance, mostly because in italy it started way before the cutoff year. So the rennaisance should be fine.

Well, what I was more thinking of was Artistotle saying that the equator was so hot man would instantaneously combust, or that European scolars had figured out how each people in the known world had descended from Adam and Eve. With the new world, where you could be on the equator just fine, and there were people there who could not possible have swam all this way, these theories were definitely disproven.


How about a simpler reason df development is stuck: One just does not share the secrets of steel making with the human, period and you're not allowed to write about it either

EDIT: Sorry if I came across as arrogant, I just read a ton of academic books last year on the history of science, and they pointed at the discovery of the world shaking things up more than printing itself, print was only an accelerator. I may have been a bit eager to share that.

[Bumber]

How about a simpler reason df development is stuck: One just does not share the secrets of steel making with the human, period and you're not allowed to write about it either

Or maybe all the rampaging megabeasts and monsters have something to do with it. Too much Fun for progress.

[Deboche]

Also imagine any scientist trying to make heads or tails of their universe.

Darwin: "These species have common traits, perhaps they share a distant ancestor. On the other hand, there is a gigantic humanoid made of bronze."

Also the argument that dwarves can't have a printing press because they don't have technological innovation is circular. They have a pretty well developed metalurgic industry, why can't someone come up with the idea to make metal plates? And even if they're not quite there yet, what's to stop them?

It's more of an agreed upon thing: this is the technological development they're at and no amount of book printing or belief-shattering will change it.

[vjmdhzgr]

I think it's a bit fruitless to argue about that. We just have to discuss how advanced the dwarven paper industry is.

If we decide dwarves should have the printing press, a good way to explain why it doesn't start a golden age of technological development is that dwarven settlements are far apart and communication between them is very limited. You can't get a good exchange of ideas going if you have to wait a full year for news.

Dwarven settlements aren't far apart. They all end up clustered very close together because dwarves only settle in mountains, and most of them have nice safe underground pathways surrounded by farmland leading directly to the other settlements where there's no rivers or bandits to block travel. Really I think the best reason for no technological advancement is because this is a fantasy world and technology never advances in those.

[AceSV]

Also, how often does your fortress last a decade?  The printing press was not the internet.  Technology spread faster, but not fast, definitely not like it does today. 

[GoblinCookie]

Ah, I forgot about the rennaisance, mostly because in italy it started way before the cutoff year. So the rennaisance should be fine.

Well, what I was more thinking of was Artistotle saying that the equator was so hot man would instantaneously combust, or that European scolars had figured out how each people in the known world had descended from Adam and Eve. With the new world, where you could be on the equator just fine, and there were people there who could not possible have swam all this way, these theories were definitely disproven.

How about a simpler reason df development is stuck: One just does not share the secrets of steel making with the human, period and you're not allowed to write about it either

EDIT: Sorry if I came across as arrogant, I just read a ton of academic books last year on the history of science, and they pointed at the discovery of the world shaking things up more than printing itself, print was only an accelerator. I may have been a bit eager to share that.

The Portuguese had already crossed the equator long before Europeans arrived in the New World.  Adam and Eve were not an initial problem because initially they thought they had reached Asia and it was not a problem once they had mapped the place because then they would know about Alaska and would (correctly) have figured out that the 'Indians' crossed over from Asia.  Adam and Eve were disproved by Geology and Biology while Aristotle's core ideas were never dependant upon any particular scientific fact being the case at all. 

One of the mysteries of life is that, unlike Dwarf Fortress everyone does not advance at exactly the same rate from a starting point regardless of where they are.  I tend to think that the answer probably lies either in ideological differences, there are certain ideas a society needs to advance further.  However ideas that propagate change to the Status Quo clash with powerful material interests that benefit from that Status Quo, they are usually armed with two weapons, religious fundamentalism and narrow pragmatism.

The former suppresses 'progressive' ideas because ignorance of secular knowledge is seen as almost a virtue while narrow pragmatists take the Status Quo for granted and over-focus ideas related to mastery of particular skills, which then become redundant or less important as the world changes. 

Dwarf Fortress universe problem is more the latter than the former.  Dwarf Fortress creatures do make technological progress in that they go from personally being dabbling at something to being legendary but they show no real interest in sharing their skills unless those skills are military, instead it seems that yes they do hoard skills rather than sharing them. 

The existence of printing however is kind of problematic in this model.  Once printed books are available fortresses would wish to have their high master of X write down books on X so that others can learn how to be more skilled.  Once this has happened however those books are now available to be bought by other fortresses, meaning that technological progress actually occurs.  Of course given the narrow pragmatism they are still only going to improve production of a limited number of things to perfection, but everyone reading a book that makes them a legendary dwarf by yesterday's standards is still technological progress.

Also, how often does your fortress last a decade?  The printing press was not the internet.  Technology spread faster, but not fast, definitely not like it does today. 

An experienced player's fortress could really last for centuries.  An inexperienced player's fortress is lucky to see it's third year. 

[Batgirl1]

There would probably be many more jobs and skills as well. Just can't think of any at the moment. Plus, if the game's technology is cut off after 1400s technology (as falcc said), that means printing presses could potentially find their way into the game at some point. Before printing presses, books could only be produced by copying them word by word by hand, making book production extremely expensive and time consuming. However, printing presses solved this problem and made books easy to produce, cheap, and widespread, allowing better large quantities of information to become available to the general public. Not only would this mean that stories could become widespread (specific stories could even become demanded), but it also means that educational books could exist in the game; dwarves could learn new skills faster from reading books.

Of course, this also brings up another question; would it be possible to have inventions in the game be spread by way of books? It would be interesting to see a dwarf fall into a strange mood, run into a mechanic's workshop, and then emerge with a new piece of technology never before seen in that world. The scholars all write about it, sell their books at enormous profit to traders, spreading the technology. These kinds of inventions might even require a book to be able to be produced, meaning that inventions could be lost to history, only to be reinvented centuries later. Inventions might even require certain knowledge as prerequisites. Perhaps printing presses could even be one of the technologies that needs to be invented, meaning that before its invention, production of books could be far more difficult.

Possible new jobs / skills:
* Paper maker
* Printer
* Author
* Poet
* Writer (not an author, but someone to copy text from book to book. This would be a very time consuming task and would likely require many dwarves if you wanted books or anything similar as any major export)
* Scholar
* Inventor


Maybe this is beyond the scope of the game though.

I think "Scribe" is the word you're looking for, for Writer.