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[4maskwolf]

And, naturally, my ipad connects as soon as I send out my post.

I much as I think origamiscienceguy is scum, the fact that TDS conveniently disappeared for 24 hours before the lynch and let Peradon get lynched has been bugging me a LOT.  I actually mention it here, in my reads list, when talking about him.  I'm getting the feeling that OSG and TDS are scumbuddies, but urrrrggggghh I don't know for sure and don't know which one we should lynch first.  The only way I'd know which one to lynch first would be if they claimed their powers, autos, and flaws, and on the off chance they are town that's not a good idea.  But in the end, while OSG was overeager in jumping on a lynch, TDS had an entire day worth of scumminess racked up on him and he's my choice for the lynch.

flabort: Tunneling was perhaps an imprecise phrase.  I was hyper-focused on TDS and Peradon, as they were my top two scumpicks, but I wasn't doing the traditional Toony-tunnel where you digdigdigdigdig until they make a misspeak or say something suboptimal.  I was using the word tunneling to mean that I developed tunnel vision, although I wasn't being entirely clear in the matter.

hector13: I wouldn't call it the last minute, I gave him a good... 5 hours (I think) to respond during a time of day he is highly active.  The one thing I do regret was not being able to interact with him to hear out his defense, but my schedule is... urk.  And the worst part of it is that the next class I would have happily had our debate had bay12 not been blocked, because we were just watching a non-essential video.

Hold up now I'm rereading things...

Yeah no actually I change my mind.  Unvote, origamiscienceguy, do you honestly think that people wouldn't give up when put in a seemingly impossible situation?  Particularly a new player?  Unless a new player displays astounding cunning and ability to fake emotions they have actually given up.  Doesn't negate the scummy things they've done in the past, but I strongly disagree that it is "scummy" behavior.  People give up sometimes, and they express it in the thread.  Just because something is "anti-town" does not automatically mean that town won't do it, particularly if its related to an innate emotional response.  While there is no reason to unvote someone because they've given up, it is in no way grounds to VOTE them, particularly when it's listed as the sole grounds to do it.  What benefit is gained from voting a player who is already the top lynch target and has given up?  Unless the scum are going to slip in at the last minute, none, and you, by your logic, wouldn't have believed they would unless for some reason his giving up, which isn't particularly controllable in the immediate moment, is actually a SCUMMY activity.  Scummy and anti-town are two different things: anti-town is anything that isn't high-odds town play, while scummy is scum-oriented play.

[flabort]

Snip

flabort, what's up with this pantomime? Did you change your opinion on who you should be voting for in the middle of making your post?

Pretty much, yeah.
I thought about making the TDS vote blue and then not doing the unvote thing, too, but I figured I had already written that much, and it was more dramatic; it also put a lot more pressure on OSG as far as I'm concerned, to explain everything.

[origamiscienceguy]

Scummy and anti-town are two different things: anti-town is anything that isn't high-odds town play, while scummy is scum-oriented play.

I see anti-town as any action that can in no way benefit town. While scummy is an action that is most likely to benefit scum. I think that giving up can in no way benefit town because, if the player is town, then the town looses a player and looses several potential arguments that could be used later in the game.

Is there anybody who thinks that a player giving up can benefit the town in any way?

Also, I voted for him because of the guilt tactics that he used. This cannot benefit the town either because, if the player was town, it would make the town feel guilty after the lynch and be more timid on following lynches.

Is there anybody who thinks that a player using guilt tactics can benefit the town in any way?

[4maskwolf]

My point is that the set of actions that don't benefit the town is larger than the set of actions that benefit the scum.  You're basing your entire argument off of the fact that it was anti-town, which it was.  Please explain, however, how it benefited scum.

[TheDarkStar]

I'm still catching up and going through Day 1. Owing to time restrictions, I've only gone through 4mask's, Shakerag's, and Varee's posts.

[4maskwolf]

I'm still catching up and going through Day 1. Owing to time restrictions, I've only gone through 4mask's, Shakerag's, and Varee's posts.

May I ask why?

[hector13]

Is there anybody who thinks that a player giving up can benefit the town in any way?

Is there anybody who thinks that a player using guilt tactics can benefit the town in any way?

It could bring the scum out to guarantee a lynch by voting on a player... as it seems to have done with you.

My issue with what you're saying is what I said before: there are a lot of experienced players in this game, unlikely to be swayed by an AtE.

I also still don't understand why you think TDS is less scummy than Perry. You say you don't believe that his vote was an RVS vote, and that would mean that you think he's lying. Is lying less anti-town or scummy than an AtE?

Like 4mask said, anti-town =/= scummy. I agree, guilt tripping is anti-town; AtE is anti-town. Peradon has perhaps not played the game long enough to know this.

Also, 4mask, you did give Peradon around 5 hours to respond. Do you think that's enough time for him to defend himself, given that you knew you had a class in the middle of that? How long was your class? I ask because there was also a gap of about 90 minutes before the last post and the day end, too, so... I don't really see how you can say that less than 3.5 hours is enough to give Perry to defend himself when you can't/don't respond, and even if you can, that it's enough time for him to convince you you're wrong. Further, there's also the issue of past performance not guaranteeing future results; just because he's been highly active around a certain time before, doesn't mean he's going to be active around that time in the future.

You took a big hit in my reads because of that, not aided at all by your "oh dear, I was wrong" post D2, including a "oh dear, my vote is my only weapon, oh noes" too. Didn't think it would be possible for my top town read to fall so far over the course of a few hours. Evidently mafia has a lot more surprises for me in the future

PPE: instead of posting about your progress, TDS, use the time to write/continue your analysis. I can't fuckin' wait to see what you have to say.

[4maskwolf]

Urk wtf I hate the wifi here.

hector13: Actually, I thought it was, particularly since I posted it right at the beginning of my hour-and-a-half lunch break I have every day except Wed.  If he convinced me, I would have changed my vote back to TDS, but before I could even see his response OSG jumped onto the lynch.  At that point, I basically gave up: OSG was going to be my first target today regardless, but at that point changing my vote wouldn't change the lynch and the town NEEDED new information in order to continue, because everything we had up to that point was idle speculation.

I'm going to turn the tables on you here for a moment.  If peradon had flipped scum, would you have the same suspicion of me?  If not, would that imply that TDS and I are scumbuddies, because I switched the lynch from him to Peradon, who we know is town and who, if I was scum, would be known to be town.  In that case, however, because we could communicate with each other, if OSG is also scum then you're assuming there are two scumteams, because there is no way we'd let OSG do something so stupid when it would be easy to just wait and let Peradon get lynched with my vote on him.

In other words, please explain your thought process of how I am scum for what happened.  I'm actually curious as to the way you see the game.

[hector13]

Urk wtf I hate the wifi here.

hector13: Actually, I thought it was, particularly since I posted it right at the beginning of my hour-and-a-half lunch break I have every day except Wed.  If he convinced me, I would have changed my vote back to TDS, but before I could even see his response OSG jumped onto the lynch.  At that point, I basically gave up: OSG was going to be my first target today regardless, but at that point changing my vote wouldn't change the lynch and the town NEEDED new information in order to continue, because everything we had up to that point was idle speculation.

I'm going to turn the tables on you here for a moment.  If peradon had flipped scum, would you have the same suspicion of me?  If not, would that imply that TDS and I are scumbuddies, because I switched the lynch from him to Peradon, who we know is town and who, if I was scum, would be known to be town.  In that case, however, because we could communicate with each other, if OSG is also scum then you're assuming there are two scumteams, because there is no way we'd let OSG do something so stupid when it would be easy to just wait and let Peradon get lynched with my vote on him.

In other words, please explain your thought process of how I am scum for what happened.  I'm actually curious as to the way you see the game.

Addressing the pink bit: Don't be putting words into my mouth. That's your assumption of my thoughts before I've made an explanation on them, not mine. Why do you feel the need to make it appear I'm saying something I haven't?

Spoiler: on my playstyle, and anticipating a question from 4mask (click to show/hide)

I don't like having more or fewer scum reads than there are scum, because it either means I'm being too lenient (fewer scum reads) or too paranoid (more scum reads). Since I don't know how many scum there are in this game - let alone how many scum teams - nor do I know if any of the third parties chose to be something anti-town, I have to basically arbitrarily pick a number and say this is how many scum/anti-town 3rd parties there are.

I'd like to think that at the start of the game, with all 12 players alive, that, at most, half would fit that definition, but no less than 3. Thus, to anticipate your next question, between 3-6 scum reads is what I'm aiming for, with 4 being a comfortable one for me to sit on.

To address your question, I would have still suspected you after changing your vote, because doing it so close to the deadline seems scummy. That does not mean I assume there are two scum teams; like I said in the spoiler, I don't know how many there are, and I also don't like speculating.

However, I shall indulge you in your little fantasy after asking me my question. The one thing you failed to mention in that particular scenario was Shakerag's vote on Peradon. There was enough time for him to come in and remove his vote on Perry, which would result in a tie had Origami not changed his vote. Perhaps that's why you let him do something so stupid and obviously scummy?

I'd also like to point out your hypocrisy on wishy-washiness, given you voted TDS in one post, and then changed your mind and voted Origami in your next post. Given that changing your vote on D1 resulted in a mislynch, I would've thought you'd be less inclined to do that... assuming you're town, of course.

Speaking of which, Shakerag, why did you leave what appeared to be an RVS vote on Peradon?

[4maskwolf]

Sorry, that middle part was me thinking out loud and seeing how closely that matched your personal views on the situation.

That's good to know about you, thank you for that information.

There's a difference between wishy-washiness and changing your mind.  I'm not hugely good with words, but what I accused Peradon for was not the same thing as what I did there.  I accused Peradon because he changed his vote because of the pressure of others, while I changed mine because I had more time to think.  Your attempt at equating two disparate cases is noted, however.

Assuming I'm town my ass, I'm not so timid that one mislynch causes me to curl up in a ball and hunker down on a vote I don't believe is the best one.  I'm going to make vote the person I deem the scummiest, and the fact that I was wrong once doesn't change that, it just means I need to recalibrate my scumminess meter.  Are you telling me that I should just curl into a ball and not change my vote out of fear that I could be wrong, and then telling me, with a straight face, that such is TOWN behavior.  Scum bunker down because they know who their enemies are, townies adapt because they don't know who to trust and not trust.

[origamiscienceguy]

My point is that the set of actions that don't benefit the town is larger than the set of actions that benefit the scum.  You're basing your entire argument off of the fact that it was anti-town, which it was.  Please explain, however, how it benefited scum.

almost anything that hurts town is in some way going to benefit scum. This is why I think anti-town should be treated the same as scumminess.

His actions benefited scum by distracting the town, putting a town player out of commission (by lynching and giving up), and making town more afraid to lynch. All of these actions will give the scum more opportunities and freedom to do as they please.

[hector13]

There's a difference between wishy-washiness and changing your mind.  I'm not hugely good with words, but what I accused Peradon for was not the same thing as what I did there.  I accused Peradon because he changed his vote because of the pressure of others, while I changed mine because I had more time to think.  Your attempt at equating two disparate cases is noted, however.

Indeed. My point stems from the fact you don't like wishy-washy voting, which I would define as erratic voting, yet seem to indulge in it yourself, not from saying what you and Perry did were the same thing.

Earlier, (in reply #434 and #435) you changed your mind from TDS to Origami in the space of 20 minutes. Last night (replies #412-417) you also voted for Origami... and then unvoted, after 20 minutes. I see that as wishy-washy.

Assuming I'm town my ass, I'm not so timid that one mislynch causes me to curl up in a ball and hunker down on a vote I don't believe is the best one.  I'm going to make vote the person I deem the scummiest, and the fact that I was wrong once doesn't change that, it just means I need to recalibrate my scumminess meter. Are you telling me that I should just curl into a ball and not change my vote out of fear that I could be wrong, and then telling me, with a straight face, that such is TOWN behavior.  Scum bunker down because they know who their enemies are, townies adapt because they don't know who to trust and not trust.

I'm not telling you that. Would you stop putting words in my mouth? It's really annoying

Origami, you have yet to explain to me why a guilt-trip from Peradon is worse than lying from TDS.

[origamiscienceguy]

Where did TDS lie?

[hector13]

Where did TDS lie?

You said you don't believe that his RVS vote was an RVS vote. What else can I construe you thinking that means?

[origamiscienceguy]

That is my opinion. There is no actual proof that he lied. That is why I voted peradon over TDS because there was a chance that he was telling the truth. I've mentioned this several times already.