Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 10

Author Topic: Outpost - Exile [Interest check]  (Read 12303 times)

VoidSlayer

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Outpost - Exile
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2015, 08:54:48 am »

Thorium is much less efficient in fuel mass to energy then the helium fusion power, it has lots of extra neutrons and produces less energy per atom, you are looking at mass increases that would make the trip take an extra 50-1800 years. 

Fusion powered propulsion by itself at these rates is also a fudge but traditional nuclear reactors are way too inefficient.  A thorium reactor would be good on the planet though, assuming you find thorium in a usable form.

The nuclear light-bulb, based on whichever fusion or fission, is certainly possible though for you to research for 'short range' trips from orbit to planet or measured in AUs, like earth to the outer comet belt.  These will still require some amount of fuel, though it will be an order of magnitude at least better then liquid rocket fuel.

The Fusion Plasma Torch is pretty efficient already, the extra power it produces is from inefficiencies being converted to energy.  To increase the energy you would need to reduce thrust, increase fuel consumption, or increase thrust and fuel consumption.  Also, if you are using a Fusion torch for power you can't coast without losing the power.

The current cargo shuttles can be stuffed with extra cargo during transit, it is much less efficient then a cargo hold though.  You are looking at 5 cargo space for about 8 hull space.  You can remove safety system and backup deceleration and landing gear if you would like...

tryrar

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Outpost - Exile
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2015, 09:29:29 am »

Alright, so you're saying we probably won't be able to get away with simply relying on the engine for power? Ok then next questioin, if we research advanced thorium fission reactors for the purpose of a nuclear thermal drive for shuttles, would we be able to get the reactor as a straight power generator without further research, and if so can we get a reactor kit as well?
Logged
This fort really does sit on the event horizon of madness and catastrophe
No. I suppose there are similarities, but I'm fairly certain angry birds doesn't let me charge into a battalion of knights with a car made of circular saws.

10ebbor10

  • Bay Watcher
  • DON'T PANIC
    • View Profile
Re: Outpost - Exile
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2015, 10:17:53 am »

The Fusion Plasma Torch is pretty efficient already, the extra power it produces is from inefficiencies being converted to energy.  To increase the energy you would need to reduce thrust, increase fuel consumption, or increase thrust and fuel consumption.  Also, if you are using a Fusion torch for power you can't coast without losing the power.
I disagree.

An electrostatic engine can turn 15 MW into 30 thrust.
A small inertial fusion generator can turn 1 fuel into 50 MW, and that is the least efficient design.

It's quite clear that there's more than enough margin for improvement.


Another question, can we kick up the sci-fi a notch and get a fission fragment engine?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fission-fragment_rocket

Exhaust at 0.03-0.05% and efficiency at 90% makes for a ridiculously high specific impulse.
Logged

Aseaheru

  • Bay Watcher
  • Cursed by the Elves with a title.
    • View Profile
Re: Outpost - Exile
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2015, 05:13:37 pm »

Is there any chance we can get a shuttle that gets its own fuel from the atmosphere so we dont have to carry as much?
Logged
Highly Opinionated Fool
Warning, nearly incapable of expressing tone in text

10ebbor10

  • Bay Watcher
  • DON'T PANIC
    • View Profile
Re: Outpost - Exile
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2015, 05:30:43 pm »

That seems very dependent on the type of atmosphere, though the lightbulb should be able to do it.
Logged

VoidSlayer

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Outpost - Exile
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2015, 07:57:53 pm »

The Fusion Plasma Torch is pretty efficient already, the extra power it produces is from inefficiencies being converted to energy.  To increase the energy you would need to reduce thrust, increase fuel consumption, or increase thrust and fuel consumption.  Also, if you are using a Fusion torch for power you can't coast without losing the power.
I disagree.

An electrostatic engine can turn 15 MW into 30 thrust.
A small inertial fusion generator can turn 1 fuel into 50 MW, and that is the least efficient design.

It's quite clear that there's more than enough margin for improvement.


Another question, can we kick up the sci-fi a notch and get a fission fragment engine?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fission-fragment_rocket

Exhaust at 0.03-0.05% and efficiency at 90% makes for a ridiculously high specific impulse.

The fusion plasma torch is 'pretty efficient' a high enough success could result in pure improvement, but if you want to improve it what tradeoffs you are willing to make would be a good idea in case I need to know.

The fission-fragmentation rocket is possible I guess, the optimal fuel seems very difficult to actually make though requiring Cm245, currently only producible in milligrams per ton of reacted uranium?  It also produces a lot of radiation, granted that is shot out the back.  You are also working with a critical mass of fissile material, even if only for milliseconds at a time.

Are you basically looking for a thruster that produces electricity and needs only a very small amount of fuel?

The lightbulb could take a non reactive propellant from the atmosphere but not fuel.  The issue with a shuttle that uses atmosphere is that it either needs to carry a tank of it with it or it can't work above the atmosphere (like a jet engine).

VoidSlayer

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Outpost - Exile
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2015, 08:11:20 pm »

Alright, so you're saying we probably won't be able to get away with simply relying on the engine for power? Ok then next questioin, if we research advanced thorium fission reactors for the purpose of a nuclear thermal drive for shuttles, would we be able to get the reactor as a straight power generator without further research, and if so can we get a reactor kit as well?

The reactor kit would include either tons of tranuranic waste or require that you find a ton of uranium and enrich it on site.  This is normally a good thing because it reduces existing waste to a faster decaying type of waste.  It is only to start the reaction, once you have a supply of thorium it can be sustained indefinitely even at a low power.  You could bring a supply of thorium with you as well, for power generation.

A thorium lightbulb rocket would have the same issue; one made for highly enriched uranium instead would have a tiny amount of fuel needed, but would be operating near critical mass.

VoidSlayer

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Outpost - Exile
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2015, 09:07:51 pm »

Wait no, sorry no thorium rocket.. um the self sustaining breeder reactor operates at 700C, the lightbulb requires operating temperatures near or above 25000C.  Two orders of magnitude is too much, it even gets less efficient at higher temperatures.

A nuclear light bulb would run on something like uranium hexafloride.  A fissile fuel is needed to reach and sustain those high temperatures in the time necessary to be useful as a rocket.

The turn is not only delayed because of me reading/ trying to remember nuclear reactor physics but because there are two competing plans for research.

The fission-fragmentation rocket operates on the same principle as the fusion reactor, control over very small and powerful magnetic fields, even if by different means, so it is perfectly possible.

tryrar

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Outpost - Exile
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2015, 09:29:32 pm »

So, basically it would either be advanced fission reactor OR nuclear lgihtbulb this turn? If so I'd be happy to try for a thorium reactor next turn.

Logged
This fort really does sit on the event horizon of madness and catastrophe
No. I suppose there are similarities, but I'm fairly certain angry birds doesn't let me charge into a battalion of knights with a car made of circular saws.

VoidSlayer

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Outpost - Exile
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2015, 09:41:01 pm »

So, basically it would either be advanced fission reactor OR nuclear lgihtbulb this turn? If so I'd be happy to try for a thorium reactor next turn.

You can also try and improve the fusion torch to produce more energy or need less fuel or whichever.  The efficiency can be improved.

The no reentry mod would not cost a build order if you want it, but any reentry would go from 'a  falling brick' to 'an egg shot out of a cannon'.  You would lose mass, add space and get some RUs back (one of the other outpost missions would be glad to grab the extra stuff).

To be clear, the fusion reactors were chosen because of efficiency, safety and ease of access to fuel.  I am gonna start a writeup without research for now.

VoidSlayer

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Outpost - Exile
« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2015, 02:18:49 am »

Turn 2 April 2076 - June 2076

Event Selection: B - Extra build slot
Build orders:
 [] Command centre (electronic central computer)
 [] Mk II Cryopods

Research Order: Improved Fusion Torch (Ideally, focus on increased efficiency, lowering fuel consumption and increasing power production. Increased Thrust/Decreased size is also nice.)

Research Order:Gas-Core Closed Cycle Nuclear Thermal Engine

Research Event:+10 all turns



Event roll 84 good success

Research roll, (1,84) improved Fusion Plasma Torch good success



Command Center - DNS Settler - June 4 2076

Commander Mateo looked over the newly installed computers, simple, functional, eight stations waiting for a crew to watch over them and from here the entire ship.  He wished the crash chairs had been installed earlier, it was uncomfortable laying here on the floor.  His vision blurred and he saw the ship landed on the surface of a new world, green grass growing, construction crews busy on new homes, children running across the metal surface bang, bang, bang.  The pain focused him back on the here and now, the banging and welding sounds contnuing, work crews desperatly trying to cut down the bolted doors.

The other man was still bouncing slowly, the micro gravity not yet putting him to rest on the floor.  Mateo had seen him around the work crews but could not put a name to the face, could not know who's name to curse and ask for forgiveness.  The encounter had happened so quickly, a flaring pain in the side, instinct and training flinging the attacker hard against the newly installed atmospheric monitoring computer, a crunch and falling.  In all his life he had never had to take a life until this day, he hoped god would forgive him without one last confession.

Now someone was talking, a short but noble speech, it almost sounded like his voice.  The banging got louder, the sound of metal bending, but the pain and sound both began to fade.  Only the cold grew, life support must be on the fritz again.



The death of so prominent a man could not be hidden, but the cause had been hushed up.  The design committee investigation could not find any evidence of why it had happened, sleeper agent, disgruntled employee, nothing seemed to make sense.  The funeral over the industrial accident was brisk with the current hurried scheduled, factories had to be moved and scaffolding put in place, ready to fill the ship with vital innards.  A new leader would be needed to command, a difficult place to fill the shoes of the Hero of Mars.

The discovery of a trove of advanced experimental technology while installing the cryobays brought additional conflict among the planners.  After a long negotiation there was agreement to give up some of the technology to the other teams in exchange for access to their supplies.  The only question left was which would be kept.

Research on improving the fusion torch occurred quickly thanks to the centralized control and concentration on existing technology.  While minor improvements are made in the external system, specialists are brought in on specific topics, examining and reexamining theories and materials long discarded in the hopes of making new progress.  New layered and specialized material are developed, allowing significant portions of the fuel fusing center to be forced closer to the surface during laser ignition and powering an internal magnetic field maintained by an additive to force all of the injected energy in a single direction.  The reaction becomes self reenforcing but controlled at a stable state through outside controlling magnetic fields.

Fuel use is reduced to near MCF levels while maintaining directed energy expulsion for use in thrust.  Power is absorbed through three separate methods improving electricity generation.  The system could be run at lower levels to provide power without thrust, though it would be less efficient then a dedicated MCF reactor.



New Module available

Fusion Fragment Thruster - 15 RU Size 12 Mass 10 Thrust 60 Electricity:+15 MW (net producer) Uses .75 fuel/year Warning! Advanced technology: major components not in storage. Time to build functional unit: 6 months.  Can be reduced to half fuel use to produce 20 MW of power and (effectively)no thrust.



Turn 3 July 2076 - Sept 2076

[]Build Orders:
        []Slot 1 :
        []Slot 2 :
        []Slot 3 :

[]Cargo Orders:

[]Research Order:

[]Event Selection:
         []Leadership selection:

                 A) Gary Butlee - Chief of Operations - Foreman of the Ark work teams, without his hands on organizing skill it is doubtful the project could have been completed on time.  He spearheaded the massive generator scale up for the ships.
                          ++ Organizer - Special manpower actions - Staggered shifts and use of downtime on tools allow even more people to be useful on existing projects.
                          + Repair and maintenance - Reactors - A slight bonus to repair and maintenance actions but particularly on reactors.
                          - Moral - Severe critical failures - Can push people far too hard, resulting in accidents and resentment.

                 B) Mara Garcia - Spacer Captain - Born in one of the first asteroid colonies, Mara has traveled all over the system in every conceivable vessel.  Except onto the ground.
                          ++ Repair and maintenance - general bonus and extra action - Has been leading damage control and repair teams all her life.
                          + Exploration and security - Passive bonus - Serious training and leadership for crisis and new environments.
                          - Mining - penalty - surface mining - Not familiar with operating on the surface of worlds and the dangers involved in underground mining.

                 C) Tina Walker - Martian Veteran - Worked as senior leadership of the resistance during the early days of the martian revolt.  She is skilled in non standard tactics and weapons engineering.  Some among the former resistance, Commander Mateo, called her little more then a terrorist bomber.
                          ++ Exploration and security - passive bonus, security leader - Engages in both strenuous training and superior tactical leadership on the ground.
                          + Engineering - Extra engineering action - Tinkering with low tech weapons and explosives has given an extra skill with improvising and adaptation.
                          - Moral - Stress - Poor at leading under stressful long term situations, is not sympathetic to those who can not 'man up'.

                D) Jacquin Velantes - Lead Scientist - Considered the top expert in robotics and computers in the system, she has consulted with dozens of research institutes on a wide variety of topics.  The current generation of optronic computing would have been impossible without her contributions.  Despite this she has bounced from project to project due to her resistance to institutional restraint and what some call tunnel vision.
                         ++ Science - Bonus to all science projects, better critical successes - Able to lead multiple teams and coordinate between them.
                         + Engineering - minor bonus, extra features - She tends to vary from design specifications, often with better results
                         - Manufacturing - minor penalty, worse critical failures - Concentrates on her own projects to the determent of other work.

                E) Dora Cooper - CEO of A+ Electronics - Second generation owner of one of the first asteroid mine factories to start operations.  She has worked at every level of an operation that mined out raw materials and produced finished goods for shipping to earth.  Under her tenure profits were up thanks to cost cutting measures and a focus on core business practices.
                       ++ Organization - Mining specialization - extra general manpower slot with a bonus to mining - 'My father started with a plasma cutter and ended up with an empire, I can do the same.'
                       + Manufacturing - less expensive building and construction - Knows how to stretch limited resources.
                       - repair and maintenance - minor penalty, major penalty to repairing engineering gear - Cutbacks in maintenance and quality can have significant effects.



           [] Event roll 84 +20 RUs and Choose 1 experimental equipment or +0 RU and choose 2 experimental equipment:

                1) Spider Drones - 10 remote-operated man sized spherical robots with eight telescoping limbs.  Capable of being equipped with a variety of tools and using swarm logic.  Can function for mining or construction as effectively as other specialist robots.  Size 5 mass 4

                2) Micro-Domes - A set of four expandable domes of different sizes using a new generation chemical expansion device and flexible carbon-fibers which harden after activation with a current.  More compact the existing habitation domes and as strong as the armored domes, in theory.  One each of Small/Medium/Large/Huge Size .5/1/1.5/2 Mass 2/4/6/8 total for all four is size 5 mass 20

               3) Hybrid Fission/Fusion reactor - This large, heavy reactor kit can be reconfigured for many types of nuclear fuel, from He3 and D-T fusion to fast breeder and third generation fission.  It was designed to be assembled as a single unit using cutting edge radiation absorption materials and containment vessels and would be significantly larger then a standard He3 reactor if installed as a ship reactor.  Size 15(packaged)/30 150 MW Mass 20.  Needs a supply of fissile fuel or 1.5 units of He3 per year.

               4) Data Analysis and Learning Expert System - DALES - Next generation optronic computer developed in secret.  Believed to have been destroyed during the disaster aboard the Settler.  This machine can give a small bonus to virtually any work similar to the optronic colony computer but will become more effective over time as it concentrates on a task.  It appears to have been wiped of any pre-exisiting learning effects.  While the central core is small, the cooling systems and data storage take up a lot of space.  Size 4 Mass 4 electricity 5 MW can be installed on ship, for free.



 Outpost Phase Explanation

The outpost phase will consist of separate projects which manpower, based on how many awake colonists you have, can be assigned to depending on which equipment (and leadership) you choose to bring.  Most equipment either provides slots or works without dedicated oversight.

Resources will be divided into discrete resources, inexcusable resources and limited resources.

Discrete resources are numerated and used in projects directly, like food, life support, electricity and basic/advanced parts.

Inexhaustible resources are effectively unlimited, though may be hard to access or use for other reasons.  For example atmospheric Nitrogen is functionally inexhaustible on earth but usable forms may be scarce due to access to equipment or nitrogen fixing bacteria.  Water may be inexhaustible next to the ocean but it would be unusable for drinking and most industrial processes.

Limited resources are usable but the quantity and quality are not accounted for so how much is actually left is not known.  For example scrap from a destroyed building or a pile of ore dug out of the ground would be limited.

The categories of slots which manpower can be used on are:

Manufacturing and construction:  Building new equipment and facilities, may be limited depending on the type of item being made.  For example exo suits can not build advanced computer parts.  Can often be stacked for bonus construction.

Mining - Digging out raw materials, cutting out underground construction space or both.

Repair and Maintenance - Fixing damaged items, preventative maintenance on critical systems or scavenging from destroyed items.

Engineering - Designing and building new systems to adapt to the new world or apply scientific research.  Some projects need manufacturing to be completed, others will provide bonuses to other areas or provide projects.

Science - Learning about discoveries on the new world or basic research to expand human knowledge.  Needs appropriate laboratories, basic research is much slower.

Exploration and Security - Exploration and security projects will be presented depending on situations, they will often provide new options for other areas.

Manpower action -  Inefficient action using raw manpower and basic or improvised tools.  Needs 6-18 people.

Entertainment - To keep up moral some manpower needs to be kept out of normal jobs.  Otherwise work is 14 hour days 7 days a week.  Needs additional facilities to make extra manpower placed here efficient.

Routine - Some facilities need manpower to operate but provide consistent results turn to turn.  Ore processors, Meat vats, life support, reactors.

10ebbor10

  • Bay Watcher
  • DON'T PANIC
    • View Profile
Re: Outpost - Exile
« Reply #41 on: February 23, 2015, 06:44:11 am »

Well, this is interesting, very interesting. Will certainly have to rerun the numbers on that.

On a side note, tryrar, I noticed you renamed my sheet. Just hope nobody gets confused that every game is using the same sheet.
Logged

VoidSlayer

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Outpost - Exile
« Reply #42 on: February 23, 2015, 10:27:30 am »

Well, this is interesting, very interesting. Will certainly have to rerun the numbers on that.

On a side note, tryrar, I noticed you renamed my sheet. Just hope nobody gets confused that every game is using the same sheet.

Oh shit that might have been me, I thought I was saving it as a new, personal file.

Aseaheru

  • Bay Watcher
  • Cursed by the Elves with a title.
    • View Profile
Re: Outpost - Exile
« Reply #43 on: February 23, 2015, 10:33:15 am »

I would say spider drones or the DALES, and as for people, well, at this point I am leaning towards Tina Walker as the least aggravating drawback.
Logged
Highly Opinionated Fool
Warning, nearly incapable of expressing tone in text

10ebbor10

  • Bay Watcher
  • DON'T PANIC
    • View Profile
Re: Outpost - Exile
« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2015, 11:06:36 am »

Well, this is interesting, very interesting. Will certainly have to rerun the numbers on that.

On a side note, tryrar, I noticed you renamed my sheet. Just hope nobody gets confused that every game is using the same sheet.
Oh shit that might have been me, I thought I was saving it as a new, personal file.
At the very least both. Everything leads to the same file. Not that I mind, really.

Edit: Any chance we can have an updated resources list?

Anyway : thoughts

- We can take 2 experiments if we don't want a 20 RU bonus.
- If we go for landing with shuttles, we will need domes.
- The Hybrid reactor is too large to be usefull
« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 12:27:39 pm by 10ebbor10 »
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 10