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[Sanctume]

kiddie pools: climbing reached skilled, swimming expert. fairly sure now that both the changes to the pool (wooden lining) and increased experience in the skills affect the climbing : swimming ratio. in a newly burrowed kid the ratio was 1:3 almost from start (used to be 1:5), the experienced ones are at 1:2 or higher for recent gains. this works so well, i don't feel like experimenting a lot. i still have a few other plans, but i am too lazy to set up the plumbing.

34.11: i would totally let the kids chat away in a small burrow to see what happens. legendary conversationalist is my unattainable ambition in 40.19, i only reached expert in more than 45 years, but at least I managed to get a few marriages now.

Re: Conversationalist. 

I am wondering if Teacher skill affects conversation. 

But anyway, I'm getting distracted away with ensuring my starting 7 dwarfs that "dreams of family" begin with Conversationalist 6 and Flattery 6 skills. 
And my would be "Leader" who shows with the higher percent for that skill via DT, gets more starting social skills: Pacifier 6, Consoler 6 at least.
Next, I plan to just make the 3 with no jobs other than partying and socializing.
My intent goal is to use these 3 as the "seed" for more babies, as well as teaching socializing in the day care.

This leaves 4 starting dwarves, enough for Herbalist to handle food, 1 miner, 1 builder, and 1 hauler to setup the day care from Day 1.

[Sanctume]

You could also do a super compact barracks over a super compact meeting zone, abd have your wrestlers train there. That way, when sparring, the wrestlers will occasionally throw each other, whacjing into bystanders and teaching them some dodging skill, wih no appreciable risk of injury.

I kind of have this already for the observer training (whole fortress population is legendary in observer) and they get a few meagre xp in dodging and wrestling this way as well, but it isn't worth it for wrestling and dodging (not enough to get even novice in 11 years).

Swimming: likely something traditional like this is the better scheme, even with a security mechanism that only opens the second door when the first door is closed, this should be easier and more effective than any of the passive training schemes I can come up with. Why does this look like a fluid logic cell?

Code: [Select]

≈ ....+Ω@  : top view, + is door, Ω is statue. @ is dwarf, can be drained with door below through a floor grate.
 +

A proper wave pool would be much cooler.

Instead of the wave repeater, how about the Fluid Logic Repeater?
http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Repeater#Fluid_logic_repeater

The byproduct is what we're interested because it will output a 4/7 water constantly. 
We just need to know how far away from the map edge we need to get the perfect trickle of 1 to 4 that will invite pathing, while randomly introducing 4/7 flow to gain swimming skill without supervision.

[taptap]

Instead of the wave repeater, how about the Fluid Logic Repeater?
http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Repeater#Fluid_logic_repeater

The byproduct is what we're interested because it will output a 4/7 water constantly. 
We just need to know how far away from the map edge we need to get the perfect trickle of 1 to 4 that will invite pathing, while randomly introducing 4/7 flow to gain swimming skill without supervision.

I don't really understand. What you quoted just  "looks like fluid logic", but it is basically a normal swimming training scheme with a dwarf baited into a room, which is locked and then filled with exactly 4/7 water. (4 tiles 7/7 = 28 units water spread to 7 tiles = 4/7 after opening the door). Only difference is that it is on a single z-level. Very effective for training, but way too much micromanagement to bother. (However, I put a troll, who needed a workout, in such a setup to see whether he profits from swimming.)

Actual "wave repeater" swimming does not work in my experience.  A single tile of 4/7 moving around even in a somewhat large room otherwise filled at 3/7 cancels effectively all and prevents* any new pathing and partying in this room. The "wave pool" I keep talking about would need to remove water to enable pathing / partying in the area and then put the water back in.

Would love to see screenshots and reports of the "artificial river" setups. Sounds good, but (how well) does it work?

a pool without up ramp side exit

In the aquifer kiddie pool (which has a lot of adjacent walls by design) they gain significant and increasing climbing skills even with an exit. Swimming you can train otherwise, but it is the only workable (passive) climbing training scheme I heard of.

[Sanctume]

Instead of the wave repeater, how about the Fluid Logic Repeater?
http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Repeater#Fluid_logic_repeater

The byproduct is what we're interested because it will output a 4/7 water constantly. 
We just need to know how far away from the map edge we need to get the perfect trickle of 1 to 4 that will invite pathing, while randomly introducing 4/7 flow to gain swimming skill without supervision.

I don't really understand. What you quoted just  "looks like fluid logic", but it is basically a normal swimming training scheme with a dwarf baited into a room, which is locked and then filled with exactly 4/7 water. (4 tiles 7/7 = 28 units water spread to 7 tiles = 4/7 after opening the door). Only difference is that it is on a single z-level. Very effective for training, but way too much micromanagement to bother. (However, I put a troll, who needed a workout, in such a setup to see whether he profits from swimming.)

...

Would love to see screenshots and reports of the "artificial river" setups. Sounds good, but (how well) does it work?

You mentioned earlier that "wave repeater" did not really work well because of pathing.

weird, posted something about that pathing will work when the water in an area is 3 or less, but the introduction of a 4/7 flowing can help gain swimming. 

So my idea is use the "Fluid logic repeater" FLR's byproduct, the 4/7 water release as the source for the artificial river that drains to the map edge inside the fortress.

(Normal 7/7 Water Source) -> FLR -> (4/7 Water Source is not Artifical River) -> (2+ wide tile hallway with up ramp exit to meeting rooms / dorms) -> map edge drain.

So my thinking is that 4/7 water flooding into a 2 tile hallway will yield water depth fluctuation of 2/7.
Would a 7/7 normal water source introduced into it produce the varying water depths as it flows out the drain?
Or maybe even have a pressure plate pump 7/7 water per trigger via entering/exiting the ramps to the meeting hall.

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Flow should be from Left to Right (drain)

###D#####uuu###
7X#^X4442???  F
########5???  F
777777776???  F
#########uuu###

the numbers are water depth.  X=floodgate as per FLR which leaves 4/7 water constantly to exit it.

The "?" are what would the water dept when a 4/7 and 7/7 meet and flowing out the the right?
Would it have  pathable 1/7, 2/7, 3/7 which randomly producing 4/7  in the flow?


Actual "wave repeater" swimming does not work in my experience.  A single tile of 4/7 moving around even in a somewhat large room otherwise filled at 3/7 cancels effectively all and prevents* any new pathing and partying in this room. The "wave pool" I keep talking about would need to remove water to enable pathing / partying in the area and then put the water back in.

Ahh, but my train of thought was from Staalo's premise that within the children's burrow, they have to path through the pool because that's where the booze stock pile.  Meaning Food stock, booze stock, meeting area are separated by the pool.

[Button]

I just had an idea for a wave pool that shouldn't be too bad.

Create a meeting area, flooded to 2/7 or 3/7. A big one - the water's gonna come in fast, don't want to drown the kiddies.

Use a Lycanthrope Timer to automate water inflow and room locking. When that time of month (heh) comes around, the doors lock, the floodgates open, and the kiddies are inundated.

There's a pressure plate in the kiddie room that'll open a drain when hit with 6/7 water, and another that closes the drain when hit with 2/7 water. This is why the room has to be big, to give the pressure plates some time to open the drain before everyone drowns. The drain is covered with a grate so no kiddies get sucked down.

When the full moon is over, the re-engaging lycanthrope timer opens the doors of the room, shuts off the water inflow, and opens the drain (until the 2/7 plate shuts it again), leaving the room in its original state.

The only potential problem I see is the doors. What happens if a kiddie is in the doorway when the tide goes on? It's not like a bridge where it'll crush them, right?

[Larix]

Mechanised doors will get stuck in open position when encountering an obstacle the moment they try to close. You need to send another "close" signal to shut them.
That's the one case where floodgates work better - they won't shut over a present obstacle, but will close _instantly_ once the obstacle is removed (no new signal required!).

[taptap]

I just had an idea for a wave pool that shouldn't be too bad.
...
There's a pressure plate in the kiddie room that'll open a drain when hit with 6/7 water, and another that closes the drain when hit with 2/7 water. This is why the room has to be big, to give the pressure plates some time to open the drain before everyone drowns. The drain is covered with a grate so no kiddies get sucked down.
...
The only potential problem I see is the doors. What happens if a kiddie is in the doorway when the tide goes on? It's not like a bridge where it'll crush them, right?

For my wave-pool I contemplated both flooding and draining via grates from below. I now think it would be best to fill the room 3/7 and occasionally (the timer doesn't really matter, push minecart over a pressure plate once in a while seems easiest) apply additional water via hatch / bridge from above and after a delay drain down to 3/7 by either pump (might be possible without water loss - but requires power) or crushing an equivalent amount of water below through grate (requires water). I would want to work with defined water volumes to avoid any drowning danger.

"Wave-repeater" swimming: I read staalo as well, his working setup depends on dodging to bring dwarves into water, the other was more theoretical I presume. My dwarves did not even walk through a body of water with only a single tile of 4/7 (rest 3/7) - at least not for booze or sleeping - and even though they were competent swimmers. This is the pool I mean, similar to staalos idea with different areas reachable only via water. Within the pool is an area with a wonderful steel statue (shown before the first watering). A single 4/7 tile stopped almost all pathing through the area (I only saw a dwarf on break go through it).

   

When I am already posting pics, I can show my aquifer kiddie pool as well (the left one features a statue, the right one is a meeting zone - animals may make problems with the second one):

      

Everything pink is tunnel tube blocks... (choice originally because it is the lightest wood available for least damage). Tileset is tahin16x16.

[Sanctume]

I've read stories where a dwarf can fall through a grate when there's pressure or water flow? 

One solution that I remember for "safe" draining is via diagonal fortification.

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####F
~~~~W
####F
Water is depressurized, and drains thru diagonal fortification.

Edit:  I forgot my main point!  I was wondering why dwarf sometimes choose to cross a river near the map edge where the water fluctuates from 7-6-5-4-3-2.  Thus the idea to try and recreate this artificial river with fluctuating water depth and flow.

[Max™]

In adventurer mode you get stuck sometimes when you're in a river that is doing the 7/6/7 fluctuations across it and you'll end up in a low enough spot that you're standing so when you try to just move normally to keep swimming it won't work because you're actually trying to walk into a wall of water.

If you had enough patience you could get through fluctuating river tiles on foot the whole way.

[Sanctume]

Different swimming schemes.


3) minecart aided swimming

- quite safe
- possible problems for mother+baby (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148035.0)
- works passively
- not available for kids as it requires vehicle riding
- very uneven skill gain

I built this minecart swimming training: http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/v0.34:Swimmer#Minecart_training

And Urist gains 9 xp in swimming per ride.
Urist's body parts are covered in water, but clothes remain dry.

[taptap]

"And Urist gains 9 xp in swimming per ride."

Yes, now run it for a few years. Even with vehicle hauling active in all dwarves some will be legendary, some not even novice, thus uneven skill gain. Some dwarves decide to repeat the ride until they need a break, others come in, take a single ride and leave again, even others completely ignore it. (And at least with my reliance on quantum stockpiles I can't afford to mess around with vehicle hauling labour too much.) Still, it is one of the proven training schemes.

[oasis789]

Regarding the swimming school, would this drawbridge-drop scheme (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=97275.msg2812421#msg2812421) still work as a relatively hands-free approach? I may not have aquifers on embark and it looks like a lot of setup.

I worry that the children will get stunned by falling and drown, though.

[taptap]

drop-to-swim:
never tried dropping dwarves down, for security reasons. if that weren't an issue (can anyone report?) the drop-to-swim sounds like a workable method. it also should be possible to set up different ways to enter such a swimming tunnel / spiral at the price of water loss in the system from the side. (i.e. bait + pressure plate + locking outside escape first + opening gate to swimming spiral afterwards + pressure plate in escape to reset)

stand-in-water-schemes:
the common drop-to-stand-in-water schemes are lazy, as you can easily set up "meditative swimming" (stand-in-water-learning) without any dropping of dwarves. (drop the water or enter water gently from the side or from below), it is even very efficient with regard to daily skill gains. what needs micromanagement is releasing dwarves from meditative swimming to tend their needs, regardless of how they entered, certainly nothing I would want to do with the whole fort. (good enough for giving a military squad some base swimming so they don't drown in the river, though.)

aquifer pool:
i suppose you could set up with a pump entering the water as well. i look at the aquifer pool more as a combined climbing + swimming school, in which capacity it is unique to my knowledge - the last results were 1:2 ratio of climbing:swimming skill gains in more experienced learners. so while other swimming schemes are worthy of exploration, i would likely stick with the aquifer pool as the only known setup that trains climbing.

[oasis789]

aquifer pool:
i suppose you could set up with a pump entering the water as well. i look at the aquifer pool more as a combined climbing + swimming school, in which capacity it is unique to my knowledge - the last results were 1:2 ratio of climbing:swimming skill gains in more experienced learners. so while other swimming schemes are worthy of exploration, i would likely stick with the aquifer pool as the only known setup that trains climbing.

You're referring to the jcnorris00 scheme? Does walking up the submerged ramp train climbing? Or do you have a different setup?

[taptap]

You're referring to the jcnorris00 scheme? Does walking up the submerged ramp train climbing? Or do you have a different setup?

My setup is shown a few posts above. It is jcnorris00 scheme in two variants with some added wooden block walls. Dwarves climb all around when water comes, you find them above the submerged ramp among other places or in the tile directly above the water.