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Author Topic: Outpost liaison arrives but...  (Read 5610 times)

Naryar

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Re: Outpost liaison arrives but...
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2015, 10:55:27 am »

Actually what you say about goblin raws is not true.  Goblins have a baseline cruelty of 50, meaning that the only true statement about them is that no goblin is less cruel than the average dwarf is.  To say that goblins are inherantly cruel psychopaths is not a truth at all. 

Code: [Select]
[CREATURE:GOBLIN]
[DESCRIPTION:A medium-sized humanoid driven to cruelty by its evil nature.]
[NAME:goblin:goblins:goblin]
[CASTE_NAME:goblin:goblins:goblin]
[CREATURE_TILE:'g'][COLOR:7:0:0]
[GLOWTILE:'"'][GLOWCOLOR:4:0:1]
[EVIL]
[INTELLIGENT]
[CANOPENDOORS]
[BONECARN][NO_DRINK][NO_EAT]
[PREFSTRING:terrifying features]
[NOCTURNAL]
[PERSONALITY:ANGER_PROPENSITY:25:75:100]
[PERSONALITY:HATE_PROPENSITY:25:75:100]
[PERSONALITY:VIOLENT:25:75:100]
[PERSONALITY:IMMODERATION:50:75:100]
[PERSONALITY:EXCITEMENT_SEEKING:0:60:100]
[PERSONALITY:CHEER_PROPENSITY:0:40:90]
[PERSONALITY:ALTRUISM:0:25:50]
[PERSONALITY:IMMODESTY:10:60:100]
[b][PERSONALITY:CRUELTY:50:75:100][/b]
[PERSONALITY:SWAYED_BY_EMOTIONS:0:25:50]
[PERSONALITY:TOLERANT:50:75:100]

Yeah, so no. It means right there than the least cruel goblin is about as cruel as the average dwarf. (Assuming that dwarves have cruelty at 0:50:100)

Goblins have a base cruelty of 75. 50 is minimum, 100 is maximum.

So yes, the majority of goblins are inherently cruel sociopaths. Maybe not all of them, but enough of them.

GoblinCookie

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Re: Outpost liaison arrives but...
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2015, 07:36:47 pm »

Yeah, so no. It means right there than the least cruel goblin is about as cruel as the average dwarf. (Assuming that dwarves have cruelty at 0:50:100)

Goblins have a base cruelty of 75. 50 is minimum, 100 is maximum.

So yes, the majority of goblins are inherently cruel sociopaths. Maybe not all of them, but enough of them.

The majority does not end up with 75, only a minority actually ends up with 75.  The majority will either be less cruel than that or more, so 65 and 85 have equal probability of occuring.

For it to be correct to declare goblins to be inherantly cruel sociopaths the majority of goblins would have to have 100 cruelty, which would mean that they are absolutely cruel, only a tiny minority (though a larger minority than dwarves) of goblins are actually such.  It would be more correct to say that proportionally more goblins are inherantly cruel sociopaths than dwarves rather that the majority of goblins are inherantly cruel sociopaths.  Turn it upside down and the average goblin is kindness 25 and the average dwarf is kindness 50.

What is the ideal level of kindness? Obviously you can be too kind; it is thus circumstantial and somewhat subjective where the ideal level of kindness lies.  Who established that the ideal level of kindness was 50, was it anyone?  Some person may say that the average person is too cruel, such a person will prefer a cruelty level of 25 while the other person will think the average person is too kind and thus a cruelty level of 75 is preferred. 

What about the average goblin's virtues?  The average goblin does have a high tolerance and a low propensity to be swayed by emotions.  Having lots of tolerance gives you little basis to hate others despite your propensity for hatred being little swayed by emotions means that you can keep your anger under control so nobody will get hurt despite your propensity for anger and violence. 
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Naryar

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Re: Outpost liaison arrives but...
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2015, 08:43:59 pm »

Yeah, so no. It means right there than the least cruel goblin is about as cruel as the average dwarf. (Assuming that dwarves have cruelty at 0:50:100)

Goblins have a base cruelty of 75. 50 is minimum, 100 is maximum.

So yes, the majority of goblins are inherently cruel sociopaths. Maybe not all of them, but enough of them.

The majority does not end up with 75, only a minority actually ends up with 75.  The majority will either be less cruel than that or more, so 65 and 85 have equal probability of occuring.

For it to be correct to declare goblins to be inherantly cruel sociopaths the majority of goblins would have to have 100 cruelty, which would mean that they are absolutely cruel, only a tiny minority (though a larger minority than dwarves) of goblins are actually such.  It would be more correct to say that proportionally more goblins are inherantly cruel sociopaths than dwarves rather that the majority of goblins are inherantly cruel sociopaths.  Turn it upside down and the average goblin is kindness 25 and the average dwarf is kindness 50.

What is the ideal level of kindness? Obviously you can be too kind; it is thus circumstantial and somewhat subjective where the ideal level of kindness lies.  Who established that the ideal level of kindness was 50, was it anyone?  Some person may say that the average person is too cruel, such a person will prefer a cruelty level of 25 while the other person will think the average person is too kind and thus a cruelty level of 75 is preferred. 

What about the average goblin's virtues?  The average goblin does have a high tolerance and a low propensity to be swayed by emotions.  Having lots of tolerance gives you little basis to hate others despite your propensity for hatred being little swayed by emotions means that you can keep your anger under control so nobody will get hurt despite your propensity for anger and violence.

Swayed by emotions means swayed by other's emotions. Being in control of your emotions is something else (STOICISM, SELF_CONTROL and other things).

Myself I rarely am swayed by emotions, sometimes it is liberating to not care, and sometimes I feel I should care more.

Of course goblins are tolerant. Have you seen their entity ethics ? They have PERSONAL_MATTER on about half of their ethics. They are bound to become tolerant else their society will disintegrate due to goblins killing each other for the slightest affront. Well, they already DO kill each other, but not to a society-destroying level due to tolerance.

Even so tolerance can be a good or a bad thing.

Should I also mention that their entity has SELF_CONTROL value at 50 ? Admittedly it is not inherent to goblins themselves, but to their entity, but it has to count for something.

And now another thing....

Code: [Select]
[CREATURE:GOBLIN]
[DESCRIPTION:A medium-sized humanoid driven to cruelty by its evil nature.]

IT SAYS IT RIGHT IN THEIR DESCRIPTION. Evil nature. That's word of god. If the [EVIL] tag didn't tick you.

Admittedly good and evil are subjective human constructions, but the point of this discussion was to see if goblins were evil or not.

Even if we are to place ourselves in a non-black and white world view... Goblins siege forts. Murder dwarves. Antagonize you. Go to make your efforts to naught. Kill the ones you are trying to protect.

They do not send diplomats for peace, they only stop attacking you when you trash them so utterly they are out of soldiers... and they come back for another attack when they recruit more.

So no, after having personally overseen the killing of hundreds of goblins on screen, and seeing them attack and attack again... No, goblins do not deserve to be treated as sentient beings. At least as long as they continue their ways of being murdering, child-snatching sociopaths. They are worse than mosquitoes, at least mosquitoes do not armor and arm themselves.

So don't be a goblin sympathizer. You have ordered them slain as well, yes ? You have killed many in defense of your forts ? Then why would you be a goblin sympathizer ?

Raven

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Re: Outpost liaison arrives but...
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2015, 05:28:28 am »

lol what did I do, startin this thread  :P
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Naryar

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Re: Outpost liaison arrives but...
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2015, 10:56:32 am »

lol what did I do, startin this thread  :P

No worries. This is not a flame war, merely arguing.

Bearskie

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Re: Outpost liaison arrives but...
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2015, 12:23:44 pm »

Dunno 'bout the whole racism thing, but playing adventurer mode offers a more tolerant sort of viewpoint.  I mean, those goblins at the marketplace were selling me berries.

By the way, my current fort has two trading neighbours.  All three of our civilizations are ruled by humans.  And my human queen (and her consort) has now moved into the dining hall.

GoblinCookie

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Re: Outpost liaison arrives but...
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2015, 01:14:01 pm »

Swayed by emotions means swayed by other's emotions. Being in control of your emotions is something else (STOICISM, SELF_CONTROL and other things).

Myself I rarely am swayed by emotions, sometimes it is liberating to not care, and sometimes I feel I should care more.

Yes swayed by emotions does mean that, but none of that changes much because not being swayed by (others) emotions limits the contagious nature of negative emotions and also makes it easier to stick up to people or for them.  So still a case of the average goblin having something 'good' about him.  A lot of evils are prevailant because people are scared of what other people will think of them rather than because they personally are like. 

Of course goblins are tolerant. Have you seen their entity ethics ? They have PERSONAL_MATTER on about half of their ethics. They are bound to become tolerant else their society will disintegrate due to goblins killing each other for the slightest affront. Well, they already DO kill each other, but not to a society-destroying level due to tolerance.

Even so tolerance can be a good or a bad thing.

Should I also mention that their entity has SELF_CONTROL value at 50 ? Admittedly it is not inherent to goblins themselves, but to their entity, but it has to count for something.

Actually you have it backwards there.  Goblins societies despite self-control, all goblins are supposed to do what they please and this rather reflected in their ethics. 

Code: [Select]
[ETHIC:KILL_ENTITY_MEMBER:PERSONAL_MATTER]
[ETHIC:KILL_NEUTRAL:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:KILL_ENEMY:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:KILL_ANIMAL:ACCEPTABLE]
[ETHIC:KILL_PLANT:ACCEPTABLE]
[ETHIC:TORTURE_AS_EXAMPLE:ACCEPTABLE]
[ETHIC:TORTURE_FOR_INFORMATION:ACCEPTABLE]
[ETHIC:TORTURE_FOR_FUN:ACCEPTABLE]
[ETHIC:TORTURE_ANIMALS:ACCEPTABLE]
[ETHIC:TREASON:PUNISH_CAPITAL]
[ETHIC:OATH_BREAKING:PERSONAL_MATTER]
[ETHIC:LYING:PERSONAL_MATTER]
[ETHIC:VANDALISM:PERSONAL_MATTER]
[ETHIC:TRESPASSING:PERSONAL_MATTER]
[ETHIC:THEFT:PERSONAL_MATTER]
[ETHIC:ASSAULT:PERSONAL_MATTER]
[ETHIC:SLAVERY:PERSONAL_MATTER]
[ETHIC:EAT_SAPIENT_OTHER:PERSONAL_MATTER]
[ETHIC:EAT_SAPIENT_KILL:PERSONAL_MATTER]
[ETHIC:MAKE_TROPHY_SAME_RACE:ACCEPTABLE]
[ETHIC:MAKE_TROPHY_SAPIENT:ACCEPTABLE]
[ETHIC:MAKE_TROPHY_ANIMAL:ACCEPTABLE]
[VALUE:LAW:-50]
[VALUE:LOYALTY:-30]
[VALUE:FAMILY:0]
[VALUE:FRIENDSHIP:-15]
[VALUE:POWER:50]
[VALUE:TRUTH:-50]
[VALUE:CUNNING:15]
[VALUE:ELOQUENCE:-30]
[VALUE:FAIRNESS:-50]
[VALUE:DECORUM:-15]
[VALUE:TRADITION:-15]
[VALUE:ARTWORK:0]
[VALUE:COOPERATION:-15]
[VALUE:INDEPENDENCE:15]
[VALUE:STOICISM:0]
[VALUE:INTROSPECTION:-30]
[VALUE:SELF_CONTROL:-50]
[VALUE:TRANQUILITY:-15]
[VALUE:HARMONY:-30]
[VALUE:MERRIMENT:0]
[VALUE:CRAFTSMANSHIP:0]
[VALUE:MARTIAL_PROWESS:15]
[VALUE:SKILL:0]
[VALUE:HARD_WORK:-15]
[VALUE:SACRIFICE:-50]
[VALUE:COMPETITION:0]
[VALUE:PERSEVERANCE:-15]
[VALUE:LEISURE_TIME:0]
[VALUE:COMMERCE:0]
[VALUE:ROMANCE:0]
[VALUE:NATURE:-30]
[VALUE:PEACE:-15]

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Personality_trait

The description of tolerance is not tolerance of wrongdoing which is actually represented by a low anger and hatred propensity, actually something goblins have a lot of.  It tolerance for those who are different from the norm, essentially goblins are generally relatively cosmopolitan sorts that really like to be around foreigners and are generally non-racist (ironically).

The other things goblins societies have in their ethics is a worship of power.  Basically the deal is that you do as you want as long as you do not hurt my power.  That is a funny sort of situation where the leaders will tacitly accept their minions killing eachother unless they are short on people and their 'power' is threatened.  Then it is tacitly defined as treason and leads to execution of the offending party.  This all fine because the government hates sacrifice, meaning that is does not see why it should expend any valuable resources unless they get more power out of it and who gives a damn that it isn't fair that the stronger goblin kills the weaker goblin? 

All in all it is rather like goblins society functions because of it's leaders power-lust causes them to selfishly keep their minions from killing eachother en-masse, because that would weaken them.

And now another thing....

Code: [Select]
[CREATURE:GOBLIN]
[DESCRIPTION:A medium-sized humanoid driven to cruelty by its evil nature.]

IT SAYS IT RIGHT IN THEIR DESCRIPTION. Evil nature. That's word of god. If the [EVIL] tag didn't tick you.
Code: [Select]
[CREATURE:HUMAN]
[DESCRIPTION:A medium-sized creature prone to great ambition.]

Humans have default personality scores for ambition.  [EVIL] tag has nothing necceserily to with moral evil, [EVIL] tag means that the creature is happy to live in an evil biome.  What it means is that goblins unlike other folks can build settlements in evil biomes.  It would be quite possible to give a creature both [GOOD] and [EVIL] tags, at which point they could spread into good and evil biomes alike. 

Admittedly good and evil are subjective human constructions, but the point of this discussion was to see if goblins were evil or not.

Even if we are to place ourselves in a non-black and white world view... Goblins siege forts. Murder dwarves. Antagonize you. Go to make your efforts to naught. Kill the ones you are trying to protect.

I was not arguing that there is no such thing as objective good and evil.  What I was arguing is that there is no reason to think that cruelty 50 is the correct level of cruelty and thus dwarves are thus inherantly better than goblins.  Basically the Golden Mean Fallacy.  You can be too cruel or you can be too kind, but what determined that 50 was the correct level of cruelty and not 75? 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GoldenMeanFallacy

They do not send diplomats for peace, they only stop attacking you when you trash them so utterly they are out of soldiers... and they come back for another attack when they recruit more.

So no, after having personally overseen the killing of hundreds of goblins on screen, and seeing them attack and attack again... No, goblins do not deserve to be treated as sentient beings. At least as long as they continue their ways of being murdering, child-snatching sociopaths. They are worse than mosquitoes, at least mosquitoes do not armor and arm themselves.

So don't be a goblin sympathizer. You have ordered them slain as well, yes ? You have killed many in defense of your forts ? Then why would you be a goblin sympathizer ?

Goblins are always making peace with people.  It just goes on over your heads and you are oblivious to it in Fortress mode but if you go into Legends mode there is plenty of that going on.  The problem with constant goblin attacks is actually a feuture of the most stupid design 'decision' Toady One ever made, that is the lengthy period of time in which invasions post-gen always succeeded against the AI, something that I am absolutely glad is over.  In my latest game I have not see any goblins yet, though they did overrun one hillocks of ours but fortunately the invasions always winning 'feuture' was patched away just after. 

Half of my civilization consists of goblins and two of my civilizations nobles are as well.  Why would I not be a 'goblin sympathiser'?  I much prefer goblins to zombies as enemies because they allow my dwarves to use their hard-gained combat skills rather than it being simply a case of counting your cage traps. 
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Raven

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Re: Outpost liaison arrives but...
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2015, 07:20:39 am »

lol what did I do, startin this thread  :P

No worries. This is not a flame war, merely arguing.
yea but it seems that lots of people agree with the fact that having goblins peacefully sit at expedition leader table to argue about trade is quite strange for a game called "dwarf fortress"

(oh well at the movie theatre we see romance between dwarves and elves...)
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FallenAngel

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Re: Outpost liaison arrives but...
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2015, 10:39:45 am »

Here's my two cents.

Everything with a civilization, even the incomprehensible kobolds, do deserve to be treated like you would something less inherently evil, like a human, or a dwarf. At least until they start trying to kill you. A goblin who is part of a dwarven civilization, and is therefore bound by their ethics and such, is essentially just a green dwarf who doesn't need booze. You could argue that their inherent personalities (see below) make them less than sentient, but said personalities only come in to play if they're a member of a fortress.

Code: [Select]
[PERSONALITY:ANGER_PROPENSITY:25:75:100]
[PERSONALITY:HATE_PROPENSITY:25:75:100]
[PERSONALITY:VIOLENT:25:75:100]
[PERSONALITY:IMMODERATION:50:75:100]
[PERSONALITY:EXCITEMENT_SEEKING:0:60:100]
[PERSONALITY:CHEER_PROPENSITY:0:40:90]
[PERSONALITY:ALTRUISM:0:25:50]
[PERSONALITY:IMMODESTY:10:60:100]
[PERSONALITY:CRUELTY:50:75:100]
[PERSONALITY:SWAYED_BY_EMOTIONS:0:25:50]
[PERSONALITY:TOLERANT:50:75:100]

Now, the dwarven equivalent.

Code: [Select]
[PERSONALITY:IMMODERATION:0:55:100]
[PERSONALITY:STRESS_VULNERABILITY:0:45:100]
[PERSONALITY:BASHFUL:0:45:100]
[PERSONALITY:SINGLEMINDED:0:55:100]
[PERSONALITY:GREED:0:55:100]

From what I can see, goblins are quite similar to dwarves, but far more radical and a bit less greedy.
Now, this doesn't mean we can't slay tons of them, but it's no more acceptable to kill a goblin outpost liaison than it is to kill a human merchant. In fact, it's worse, since they're a member of your civilization.
Still, this is a game, and there's nothing inherently wrong about stealing from elves then removing their hands.
Elves, while still sapient, are closer to plants than dwarves[citation needed].

Oberyn Smashedface

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Re: Outpost liaison arrives but...
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2015, 10:43:18 am »

Along these same lines, I had a tame kobold show up with the Queen and her entourage when they migrated in. He just sort of hangs out in the meeting hall.  He's listed as an animal, cannot be tamed, but I can slaughter him if I were inclined (I'm not).  I imagine he sits on the Queen's lap and behaves a lot like Jabba-the-Hutt's pet rat monkey.

Queen: "Urist! For failing to "make" me the 3 large gems I ordered..." 
Urist: "But I can't even.."
Queen: "SILENCE! For failing to make my gems, I hereby sentence you to...The Hammer!"
Pet Kobold: "HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!"
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kirmaster

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Re: Outpost liaison arrives but...
« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2015, 10:49:03 am »

I think this discussion can be easily framed within D&D's ( albeit not very clear) terminology:  Naryar states goblins are USUALLY EVIL, which means in D&D terms: will grow up to be evil under normal conditions.  They can be other alignments, however, due to different upbringings or personalities, rejecting the values of their society. As a logical consequence, it's probably a good idea to rain catapult fire on goblin armies without parley, since statistically they are here to kill and steal.

GoblinCookie, however, refutes that goblins are ALWAYS EVIL, like D&D's devils and demons: creatures made of evil stuff who can't good if their life depended on it. This is of course, true. There are peaceful goblins and goblins which have fled from their society.

So in all: goblins are USUALLY EVIL, not ALWAYS EVIL, and you should kill any of their armies and snatchers or suffer ruin. More conclusions can't be drawn from the currently presented arguments.
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FallenAngel

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Re: Outpost liaison arrives but...
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2015, 10:51:55 am »

-snip-

This makes perfect sense.
I think goblins are usually evil, but can change.
Same reasons why an elf can grow up to be an elf-hating booze-guzzler, if he's lucky.

GoblinCookie

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Re: Outpost liaison arrives but...
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2015, 03:13:24 pm »

yea but it seems that lots of people agree with the fact that having goblins peacefully sit at expedition leader table to argue about trade is quite strange for a game called "dwarf fortress"

(oh well at the movie theatre we see romance between dwarves and elves...)

It is going to get worse.  Toady One I hear is actually about to make us get migrants from other civilizations and is 'clearing up the remaining problems with multi-species forts'. 

Here's my two cents.

Everything with a civilization, even the incomprehensible kobolds, do deserve to be treated like you would something less inherently evil, like a human, or a dwarf. At least until they start trying to kill you. A goblin who is part of a dwarven civilization, and is therefore bound by their ethics and such, is essentially just a green dwarf who doesn't need booze. You could argue that their inherent personalities (see below) make them less than sentient, but said personalities only come in to play if they're a member of a fortress.

Actually that is not true.  All creatures in the game have emotions regardless of entity status and so on.  Personality generates emotions, which generates behavior whether you are citizen of a fortress or not. 

I think this discussion can be easily framed within D&D's ( albeit not very clear) terminology:  Naryar states goblins are USUALLY EVIL, which means in D&D terms: will grow up to be evil under normal conditions.  They can be other alignments, however, due to different upbringings or personalities, rejecting the values of their society. As a logical consequence, it's probably a good idea to rain catapult fire on goblin armies without parley, since statistically they are here to kill and steal.

GoblinCookie, however, refutes that goblins are ALWAYS EVIL, like D&D's devils and demons: creatures made of evil stuff who can't good if their life depended on it. This is of course, true. There are peaceful goblins and goblins which have fled from their society.

So in all: goblins are USUALLY EVIL, not ALWAYS EVIL, and you should kill any of their armies and snatchers or suffer ruin. More conclusions can't be drawn from the currently presented arguments.

In Dwarf Fortress world personalities are presently fixed at birth and nothing can ever change them.  What I have said instead can be reduced to basically these things. 

1.  That it is incorrect to treat or judge the individual being according to the 'average' properties of the group that they happen to belong to, unless all members of the group are actually uniform.  That is because one very rarely ever meets Mr. Average, one cannot treat a specific goblin (in this case outpost liason) based upon what the average goblin is like because no such goblin actually exists.  Racism is therefore wrong regardless of whether or not racial differences exist, because it is oppressive to treat a person based upon the percieved characteristics of the average member of that group.

2. More of a good thing is not necceserily a good thing nor are bad things necceserily bad in sufficiant moderation.  This means that there is a question as to what the ideal level of something is, it may be that one can be too kind and not only that you can too cruel. 

3. Opposite of 2, the Golden Mean Fallacy is a fallacy.  There is no reason to assume that the exact middle, that is 50 out of 100 is the perfect level to have, though it may be.  The ideal level can therefore be anything between 0 and 100 rather than always being 50. 

4. Considering 1. and 2. the whole concept of a creature objectively being evil or good, unless evil or good are actually elements in their own right and they consist solely of one of those elements is not sound.  In D&D terms all creature alignments are actually defined against the one doing the defining.  Calling a creature EVIL_ALIGNEMNT then means essentially nothing other than Better than I am while calling a creature GOOD_ALIGNMENT means essentially nothing other than Worse than I am. 

The trouble comes when you consider 3 and 2.  Since the average goblin (who does not exist see 1.) has a cruelty value of 75 he is only worse than the average dwarf is one takes less than 75 as the ideal level of cruelty.  That means that the average dwarf is evil because he is a sucker that is just waiting to be taken advantage of by someone else, which is evil.  Someone with cruelty 100 is also equally evil since he lacks the ideal amount of kindness which is 25, thus we now have a goblin-centric D&D alignment system. 

In a goblin-centric alignment system goblins are quite naturally NEUTRAL_ALIGNEMNT.  Good is defined as either being more cruel or more kind than goblins.  If it is more cruel, then dwarves, humans and elves are EVIL_ALIGNMENT while demons are GOOD_ALIGNMENT.  If it is more kind then they are GOOD_ALIGNMENT and demons are EVIL_ALIGNMENT.
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4maskwolf

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Re: Outpost liaison arrives but...
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2015, 05:37:52 pm »

I'm just going to chime in here and point out that the humans aren't exactly good guys either.  I'd like you all to take a look at this particular ethic of theirs:
Code: [Select]
[ETHIC:KILL_NEUTRAL:JUSTIFIED_IF_NO_REPERCUSSIONS]
Thus, depending on your definition of "no repercussions", humans could be every bit as sly and backstabby as goblins: even more so, because they are considered inherently more trustworthy than goblins.

I think it really depends on where you draw the Neutral line.  What do you use as your measuring stick?

Naryar

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Re: Outpost liaison arrives but...
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2015, 06:45:01 pm »

Humans are basically vikings.
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