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[Squeegy]

Some things I think would make for more interesting gameplay:

Conquered cities are reduced to pop 0 and given their own "destroyed" graphic, and you have to claim them to bring them back to pop 1, and then put your own population in to make the city functional again. This would eliminate "pop stealing" where taking other players' cities lets you hijack their invested population and even take it out of the city and put it elsewhere, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense and isn't present with villages. Conquering could also be done over multiple turns, with each conquer reducing the city's population by 1, so that larger cities take longer to conquer, which makes sense. Pop 0 cities could be conquered again to raze them completely. This would let people whose cities are under attack have a much larger window to prevent the city from being taken, which allows for more leeway in combat, and integrates razing seamlessly into the hard-coding.

Honestly, considering reverse-engineering the code and adding these improvements in myself, since Vanigo seems reluctant to either continue the project or release it open-source.

[Rolepgeek]

doesn't make a whole lot of sense and isn't present with villages.

Sure it is. Pop of the tile goes down by one when you conquer it, whether city or village. Villages just only happen to have 1 pop. And cities having their pop moved about;, it's just slavery is all. Nothing big.

Oh, and thanks for:

Rolepgeek just assumes everyone who disagrees with him is defensive.

Real nice, Squeegy. Had nothing to do with disagreement and everything to do with the tone of the response, text or no.

[hector13]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

<playerturn player="hector13">
  <tileorders>
    <tileorder type="tClaim" x="15" y="14"/>
  </tileorders>
  <cityorders>
    <cityorder type="bBld" cityid="8">
      <building code="cMine"/>
    </cityorder>
    <cityorder type="bBld" cityid="15">
      <building code="found"/>
    </cityorder>
    <cityorder type="bBld" cityid="17">
      <building code="stabl"/>
    </cityorder>
    <cityorder type="bBld" cityid="24">
      <building code="barr"/>
    </cityorder>
    <cityorder type="bBld" cityid="28">
      <building code="dock"/>
    </cityorder>
  </cityorders>
  <armyorgorders/>
  <armyorders/>
</playerturn>

Edit: Would have to agree with RPG re moving population from conquered cities being analogous to slavery.

I would maybe prefer amending what you suggest (nerfing a conquered town to pop 1) to having a random number of population erosion to reflect dead civvies and refugees leaving, though I'm not sure how you feel about trying to get the latter part into the game.

[lemon10]

Some things I think would make for more interesting gameplay:

Conquered cities are reduced to pop 0 and given their own "destroyed" graphic, and you have to claim them to bring them back to pop 1, and then put your own population in to make the city functional again. This would eliminate "pop stealing" where taking other players' cities lets you hijack their invested population and even take it out of the city and put it elsewhere, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense and isn't present with villages. Conquering could also be done over multiple turns, with each conquer reducing the city's population by 1, so that larger cities take longer to conquer, which makes sense. Pop 0 cities could be conquered again to raze them completely. This would let people whose cities are under attack have a much larger window to prevent the city from being taken, which allows for more leeway in combat, and integrates razing seamlessly into the hard-coding.

Honestly, considering reverse-engineering the code and adding these improvements in myself, since Vanigo seems reluctant to either continue the project or release it open-source.

Yeah, there are a ton of things you could do to radically change the game with access to the source code, and quite a few interface improvements (eg. having a merge army button which allows you to merge two armies of any size with a single click).

That said, it is rather rude to reverse engineer someone's code when they explicitly say that they don't want to release it open source.

[Rolepgeek]

Goddamnit I keep posting before I add my turn.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

<playerturn player="Rolepgeek">
  <tileorders>
    <tileorder type="bRoad" x="36" y="33"/>
    <tileorder type="bRoad" x="35" y="34"/>
    <tileorder type="bCity" x="29" y="4">
      <cityname>Jezebel</cityname>
    </tileorder>
    <tileorder type="tClaim" x="28" y="5"/>
  </tileorders>
  <cityorders>
    <cityorder type="bBld" cityid="14">
      <building code="wWall"/>
    </cityorder>
    <cityorder type="rUnit" cityid="6">
      <unittype code="knight"/>
    </cityorder>
    <cityorder type="bBld" cityid="21">
      <building code="cavY"/>
    </cityorder>
    <cityorder type="bBld" cityid="36">
      <building code="eng"/>
    </cityorder>
    <cityorder type="bBld" cityid="35">
      <building code="eng"/>
    </cityorder>
  </cityorders>
  <armyorgorders>
    <armyorgorder type="rnUnit" armyid="86" x="35" y="26">
      <targetunit unitid="95"/>
      <newname>Cataphractii Iota</newname>
    </armyorgorder>
    <armyorgorder type="mUnit" armyid="86" x="35" y="26">
      <targetunit unitid="95"/>
      <secondarmy armyid="61"/>
    </armyorgorder>
    <armyorgorder type="dArmy" armyid="86" x="35" y="26"/>
    <armyorgorder type="rnUnit" armyid="78" x="35" y="26">
      <targetunit unitid="88"/>
      <newname>Cataphractii Kappa</newname>
    </armyorgorder>
    <armyorgorder type="mUnit" armyid="78" x="35" y="26">
      <targetunit unitid="88"/>
      <secondarmy armyid="61"/>
    </armyorgorder>
    <armyorgorder type="dArmy" armyid="78" x="35" y="26"/>
    <armyorgorder type="rnUnit" armyid="85" x="34" y="23">
      <targetunit unitid="94"/>
      <newname>Cataphractii Lambda</newname>
    </armyorgorder>
  </armyorgorders>
  <armyorders>
    <armyorder type="mArmy" armyid="51" x="36" y="32">
      <step dx="0" dy="1"/>
      <step dx="-1" dy="1"/>
      <step dx="-1" dy="1"/>
    </armyorder>
    <armyorder type="mArmy" armyid="61" x="35" y="26">
      <step dx="-1" dy="-1"/>
      <step dx="0" dy="1"/>
      <step dx="0" dy="1"/>
    </armyorder>
    <armyorder type="mArmy" armyid="85" x="34" y="23">
      <step dx="0" dy="1"/>
      <step dx="1" dy="1"/>
      <step dx="0" dy="1"/>
    </armyorder>
    <armyorder type="mArmy" armyid="62" x="36" y="32">
      <step dx="0" dy="-1"/>
    </armyorder>
  </armyorders>
</playerturn>

I feel it's rather too punishing to the attacker, and to a point the defender, to reduce the pop by more than one.

[Squeegy]

That said, it is rather rude to reverse engineer someone's code when they explicitly say that they don't want to release it open source.

He didn't explicitly say that. As far as I know he hasn't said anything on the subject.

Edit: Would have to agree with RPG re moving population from conquered cities being analogous to slavery.

I would maybe prefer amending what you suggest (nerfing a conquered town to pop 1) to having a random number of population erosion to reflect dead civvies and refugees leaving, though I'm not sure how you feel about trying to get the latter part into the game.

The thing is that this "slavery" mechanic doesn't mesh with the rest of the game. If "pop of the tile goes down by one when you conquer it" is the rule, then why do pop 2 cities have no effect? There's no coherent design philosophy there, it wasn't meant to imply slavery, that's just how the game "works." In every other aspect of the game but this one, the only population you get is the population you earn through conversion of Food. It all points to the idea that if the design were made consistent, you would only be able to get pop through that, and shouldn't be able to take it from other players. After all, as NQT said, you can't raze your own villages. If you can't enslave your people and force them to move elsewhere, why can you make slaves out of the subjects you gain when you conquer a city? It does not make sense from a game design POV.

[SilverDragon]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

<playerturn player="SilverDragon">
  <tileorders>
    <tileorder type="tClaim" x="32" y="34"/>
    <tileorder type="tClaim" x="30" y="31"/>
    <tileorder type="tClaim" x="27" y="36"/>
  </tileorders>
  <cityorders/>
  <armyorgorders/>
  <armyorders>
    <armyorder type="mArmy" armyid="0" x="28" y="34">
      <step dx="0" dy="1"/>
    </armyorder>
  </armyorders>
</playerturn>

[Squeegy]

Spoiler: Turn 46 (click to show/hide)

Islanders:

34 food used to gain 1 free population
Tile (15,14) claimed
Cavern Mines built in Islander Landing
Foundry built in Islander's Climb
Stables built in Rivertown
Barracks built in Expansion
Docks built in Moar Complex


Kharen States:

43 food used to gain 1 free population
43 food used to gain 1 free population
Road built at (36,33)
Road built at (35,34)
City Jezebel built at (29,4)
Tile (28,5) claimed
Palisade built in Frestla
Knights raised in New Tempast
Cavalry Yard built in Mt Orstian
Engineer's Guild built in Stirras
Engineer's Guild built in Bakdera
Knights (95) renamed to Cataphractii Iota
Cataphractii Iota moved to Lochagos Déf̱teros
Kharen States army 86 disbanded
Cataphractii Iota renamed to Cataphractii Kappa
Cataphractii Kappa moved to Lochagos Déf̱teros
Kharen States army 78 disbanded
Knights (94) renamed to Cataphractii Lambda
Kharen States army 85 moves to (35,26)
Lochagos Déf̱teros moves to (34,27)
Lochagos Pró̱ta moves to (34,35)
Kharen Immortals moves to (36,31)


Southerners:

21 food used to gain 1 free population
Tile (32,34) claimed
Tile (30,31) claimed
Tile (27,36) claimed
Haunted Men moves to (28,35)
Golden Horde army 67 has conquered Eastwatch-in-the-Hills!
Golden Horde has razed your village on (30,37)!


Westerners:

40 food used to gain 1 free population
Cavalry Yard built in Bronze Stockades
Engineer's Guild built in AdamantineBarriers
Palisade built in Cryptfiends
Marketplace built in WheeledQuern
Foundry built in IronPalisades
Training Field built in OakFrontiers
Cannon (79) moved to The Teachers of Stone
Westerners army 64 is empty and is disbanded
The Swift Hooves moves to (14,34)
Westerners army 81 moves to (12,36)
Westerners army 87 moves to (9,36)
Westerners army 88 moves to (5,35)
The Teachers of Stone moves to (5,35)


Manen:

44 food used to gain 1 free population
44 food used to gain 1 free population
Tile (14,26) claimed
Road built at (11,24)
Farm built at (11,24)
Hunter's Camp built at (9,24)
Hunter's Camp built at (8,25)
Breeder's Pasture built in Nova
Barracks built in Comcast
Granary built in Neptune
Knights raised in Luna
Palisade built in Gaia
Knights (98) moved to Manen army 39
Manen army 89 disbanded


Golden Horde:

Claim (32,34) failed: Already claimed by Southerners
Tile (31,35) claimed
Tile (33,34) claimed
Tile (34,35) claimed
Tile (33,35) claimed
Farm built at (32,36)
Tile (32,39) claimed
Sutherland grows to size 4
Gold-Sickness moves to (38,28)
Offshoots moves to (31,33)
Golden Horde Scouting Force moves to (35,24)
Golden Horde army 67 has conquered Eastwatch-in-the-Hills!
Ochre has razed Southerners's village on (30,37)!

The Golden Horde scouts take the early morning, disappearing from the forest before the armies of the Kharen States can penetrate the treeline. But when the Horde comes to stake a claim on the river, they find Southerner huts already built there. Though perhaps not for long, as part of the Horde's scouting force sweeps unchallenged through the Southerners' undefended lands. Nearly half the Southern hold has fallen to the scouts, and while they may not be able to wipe them out without reinforcements, they are reduced to huddling in the Hold while the Westerner Dragoons ride closer on the horizon. Meanwhile, Kharen Cataphractii ride out of their own beleaguered lands to aid the Southerners. Fighting has been averted this time, but it cannot be delayed much longer.

Turn 47

Player interface
Admin Interface

Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - Kashyyk
Southerners - SilverDragon
Kharen States - Rolepgeek
Golden Horde - notquitethere

[Kashyyk]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

<playerturn player="Kashyyk">
  <tileorders>
    <tileorder type="bRoad" x="10" y="26"/>
    <tileorder type="bRoad" x="10" y="22"/>
    <tileorder type="bImp" x="14" y="26">
      <improvement code="farm"/>
    </tileorder>
    <tileorder type="tClaim" x="16" y="26"/>
    <tileorder type="bRoad" x="17" y="24"/>
    <tileorder type="bRoad" x="17" y="23"/>
    <tileorder type="bRoad" x="16" y="22"/>
    <tileorder type="bRoad" x="15" y="20"/>
    <tileorder type="bRoad" x="17" y="26"/>
    <tileorder type="bRoad" x="17" y="27"/>
  </tileorders>
  <cityorders>
    <cityorder type="bBld" cityid="18">
      <building code="stabl"/>
    </cityorder>
    <cityorder type="rUnit" cityid="4">
      <unittype code="knight"/>
    </cityorder>
    <cityorder type="bBld" cityid="22">
      <building code="bowyer"/>
    </cityorder>
    <cityorder type="addPop" cityid="33"/>
  </cityorders>
  <armyorgorders/>
  <armyorders/>
</playerturn>

[notquitethere]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

<playerturn player="notquitethere">
  <tileorders>
    <tileorder type="tClaim" x="34" y="33"/>
    <tileorder type="tClaim" x="30" y="37"/>
    <tileorder type="bImp" x="32" y="38">
      <improvement code="farm"/>
    </tileorder>
    <tileorder type="tClaim" x="35" y="35"/>
    <tileorder type="tClaim" x="34" y="34"/>
  </tileorders>
  <cityorders>
    <cityorder type="addPop" cityid="31"/>
  </cityorders>
  <armyorgorders/>
  <armyorders>
    <armyorder type="mArmy" armyid="50" x="35" y="24">
      <step dx="0" dy="-1"/>
      <step dx="-1" dy="-1"/>
      <step dx="0" dy="-1"/>
    </armyorder>
    <armyorder type="mArmy" armyid="83" x="38" y="28">
      <step dx="-1" dy="-1"/>
    </armyorder>
    <armyorder type="conq" armyid="55" x="31" y="33"/>
    <armyorder type="mArmy" armyid="67" x="35" y="37">
      <step dx="-1" dy="0"/>
    </armyorder>
    <armyorder type="mArmy" armyid="66" x="30" y="37">
      <step dx="0" dy="-1"/>
      <step dx="0" dy="-1"/>
    </armyorder>
  </armyorders>
</playerturn>

[hector13]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

<playerturn player="hector13">
  <tileorders>
    <tileorder type="tClaim" x="16" y="15"/>
  </tileorders>
  <cityorders>
    <cityorder type="rUnit" cityid="8">
      <unittype code="dragoon"/>
    </cityorder>
    <cityorder type="bBld" cityid="15">
      <building code="gunR"/>
    </cityorder>
    <cityorder type="bBld" cityid="17">
      <building code="found"/>
    </cityorder>
    <cityorder type="bBld" cityid="24">
      <building code="apoth"/>
    </cityorder>
  </cityorders>
  <armyorgorders>
    <armyorgorder type="mUnit" armyid="84" x="12" y="12">
      <targetunit unitid="93"/>
      <secondarmy armyid="34"/>
    </armyorgorder>
  </armyorgorders>
  <armyorders/>
</playerturn>

The thing is that this "slavery" mechanic doesn't mesh with the rest of the game. If "pop of the tile goes down by one when you conquer it" is the rule, then why do pop 2 cities have no effect? There's no coherent design philosophy there, it wasn't meant to imply slavery, that's just how the game "works." In every other aspect of the game but this one, the only population you get is the population you earn through conversion of Food. It all points to the idea that if the design were made consistent, you would only be able to get pop through that, and shouldn't be able to take it from other players. After all, as NQT said, you can't raze your own villages. If you can't enslave your people and force them to move elsewhere, why can you make slaves out of the subjects you gain when you conquer a city? It does not make sense from a game design POV.

I had a bit of a spiel on my thoughts which got lost after internet nonsense

Summary: You can remove population from your towns, and it says in the orders window that you are using -1 pop (though I don't know if you get that the next turn, don't want to experiment 50 turns in ) but I would consider that emigration rather than slavery (semantic arguments, yay!)

Uh... I said something about conquered towns... something along the lines of pop of conquered towns being returned to the previous owner (Player A conqueres town size 5 of Player B. A gets town size 1 next turn, B gets 4 extra pop) to reflect refugees, or the rest of the population just being massacred by invading armies, if you're not happy with the slavery thing. I think it makes sense, but I like to rationalise things endlessly.

[notquitethere]

I always saw the city capture as ruling over the natives, while killing those that opposed. When you do it to villages, there's not enough people left alive to rule over.

[Kashyyk]

You can remove population from your towns, and it says in the orders window that you are using -1 pop (though I don't know if you get that the next turn, don't want to experiment 50 turns in ) but I would consider that emigration rather than slavery (semantic arguments, yay!)

You can use it on the same turn you remove the population, but like expansion and and city increases, this doesn't affect the free poop number you see in the players window until next turn.

Regarding the theft of other players' pop with conquering, I would've liked it if villages didn't get razed on conquering, but that might have made things a bit unbalanced. Would have changed gameplay a load if nothing else.

[Squeegy]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

<playerturn player="hector13">
  <tileorders>
    <tileorder type="tClaim" x="16" y="15"/>
  </tileorders>
  <cityorders>
    <cityorder type="rUnit" cityid="8">
      <unittype code="dragoon"/>
    </cityorder>
    <cityorder type="bBld" cityid="15">
      <building code="gunR"/>
    </cityorder>
    <cityorder type="bBld" cityid="17">
      <building code="found"/>
    </cityorder>
    <cityorder type="bBld" cityid="24">
      <building code="apoth"/>
    </cityorder>
  </cityorders>
  <armyorgorders>
    <armyorgorder type="mUnit" armyid="84" x="12" y="12">
      <targetunit unitid="93"/>
      <secondarmy armyid="34"/>
    </armyorgorder>
  </armyorgorders>
  <armyorders/>
</playerturn>

The thing is that this "slavery" mechanic doesn't mesh with the rest of the game. If "pop of the tile goes down by one when you conquer it" is the rule, then why do pop 2 cities have no effect? There's no coherent design philosophy there, it wasn't meant to imply slavery, that's just how the game "works." In every other aspect of the game but this one, the only population you get is the population you earn through conversion of Food. It all points to the idea that if the design were made consistent, you would only be able to get pop through that, and shouldn't be able to take it from other players. After all, as NQT said, you can't raze your own villages. If you can't enslave your people and force them to move elsewhere, why can you make slaves out of the subjects you gain when you conquer a city? It does not make sense from a game design POV.

I had a bit of a spiel on my thoughts which got lost after internet nonsense

Summary: You can remove population from your towns, and it says in the orders window that you are using -1 pop (though I don't know if you get that the next turn, don't want to experiment 50 turns in ) but I would consider that emigration rather than slavery (semantic arguments, yay!)

Uh... I said something about conquered towns... something along the lines of pop of conquered towns being returned to the previous owner (Player A conqueres town size 5 of Player B. A gets town size 1 next turn, B gets 4 extra pop) to reflect refugees, or the rest of the population just being massacred by invading armies, if you're not happy with the slavery thing. I think it makes sense, but I like to rationalise things endlessly.

I'd prefer the system I outlined, because I don't think the pop should be returned to them either (conquering is the destroying of pop), and I like that it will drag out the conquest of cities somewhat.

[Pencil_Art]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

<playerturn player="Pencil_Art">
  <tileorders>
    <tileorder type="tClaim" x="11" y="34"/>
    <tileorder type="tClaim" x="9" y="33"/>
    <tileorder type="tClaim" x="9" y="35"/>
    <tileorder type="tClaim" x="11" y="33"/>
  </tileorders>
  <cityorders>
    <cityorder type="bBld" cityid="7">
      <building code="bowyer"/>
    </cityorder>
    <cityorder type="bBld" cityid="11">
      <building code="sWall"/>
    </cityorder>
    <cityorder type="bBld" cityid="37">
      <building code="smith"/>
    </cityorder>
    <cityorder type="rUnit" cityid="20">
      <unittype code="cannon"/>
    </cityorder>
    <cityorder type="bBld" cityid="19">
      <building code="alchG"/>
    </cityorder>
  </cityorders>
  <armyorgorders>
    <armyorgorder type="mUnit" armyid="88" x="5" y="35">
      <targetunit unitid="97"/>
      <secondarmy armyid="17"/>
    </armyorgorder>
  </armyorgorders>
  <armyorders>
    <armyorder type="mArmy" armyid="81" x="12" y="36">
      <step dx="1" dy="0"/>
      <step dx="1" dy="0"/>
    </armyorder>
    <armyorder type="mArmy" armyid="87" x="9" y="36">
      <step dx="1" dy="0"/>
      <step dx="1" dy="0"/>
      <step dx="1" dy="0"/>
    </armyorder>
    <armyorder type="mArmy" armyid="73" x="14" y="34">
      <step dx="1" dy="0"/>
      <step dx="1" dy="0"/>
      <step dx="1" dy="0"/>
    </armyorder>
    <armyorder type="mArmy" armyid="17" x="5" y="35">
      <step dx="1" dy="0"/>
    </armyorder>
  </armyorders>
</playerturn>