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Which graphics set should the Modest Mod be uploaded in next?

Afro
- 1 (0.7%)
Duerer
- 8 (5.4%)
GemSet
- 14 (9.5%)
Ironhand
- 29 (19.6%)
Jolly Bastion
- 5 (3.4%)
Mayday
- 15 (10.1%)
Obsidian
- 17 (11.5%)
Spacefox
- 35 (23.6%)
Wanderlust
- 11 (7.4%)
Other (please specify)
- 13 (8.8%)

Total Members Voted: 148


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Author Topic: Modest Mod v0.42.06-1  (Read 153733 times)

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Re: Modest Mod v0.40.24-2a
« Reply #180 on: December 01, 2015, 12:28:14 pm »

Hey all, just a reminder since the new version is coming out that there's a good chance the Modest Mod won't be compatible yet. I'll be keeping tabs on the release and will release a Modest Mod for the new version as soon as I think it's ready - probably before the new year.

Is there any chance of getting the Accelerated mod without the Modest Mod changes?

Looking at the Accelerated raws, it seems that it comes bundled with all of the other changes in the Modest Mod. I'm not interested in the Modest Mod changes, but simplified materials would be very nice.

Not in the near future.

Can I ask what changes in the Modest Mod turn you off of it? It's intended to be minimally intrusive, just fixing a few things that are bugged or inconsistent in vanilla Dwarf Fortress.
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Ghills

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Re: Modest Mod v0.40.24-2a
« Reply #181 on: December 01, 2015, 12:52:12 pm »

Is there any chance of getting the Accelerated mod without the Modest Mod changes?

Looking at the Accelerated raws, it seems that it comes bundled with all of the other changes in the Modest Mod. I'm not interested in the Modest Mod changes, but simplified materials would be very nice.

Not in the near future.

Can I ask what changes in the Modest Mod turn you off of it? It's intended to be minimally intrusive, just fixing a few things that are bugged or inconsistent in vanilla Dwarf Fortress.

I suspect of the things you call 'bugs' I call 'things that make the game different from RL and interesting'. 

Also, a bunch of your changes are inconvenient from a gameplay perspective. Ex, I want to know when babies are born, but I don't particularly care about citizen deaths because I probably am already aware of all the places citizens could get into trouble in the fort. 

Or the changes increase the number of violent NPCs - the military screens are so hilariously bad that I never touch them, so I'm not in favor of making more large predators. 

Or the changes are biologically/historically inaccurate - scorpions do not have the body structure to handle being ridden, and all animals that give live birth are milkable, humans included.  Humans use lots of animals for hunting that wouldn't produce human-eatable game following their natural instincts, so there's no reason to not have hunting dragons. They'd just be trained to use claws instead of fire, much like most hunting animals are trained to not damage the hunted animals.

I'm very interested in not having to deal with 18 different types of leather bags, but I think we have a very different view of what the issues with DF are, and I'm not interested in the changes you like.   It's a problem with any mod that relies on a person's subjective judgement - 'minimally invasive' to you is 'weird and bad' to me, and probably vice versa. 


Some of the specific items:

Births do not cause the game to pause and recenter.
Citizen deaths cause the game to pause and recenter.

Butchered creatures produce skin - and thus leather - in proportion to their size.
Giant variations of carnivorous creatures have remembered that they are LARGE_PREDATORs. So have blind cave bears.
Animal people are not milkable.
Unless they're aquatic, insects, gastropods, arachnids, amphibians, most reptiles, and all of their respective variations lay eggs. Also voracious cave crawlers, giant desert scorpions, and hydras.
Giant and animal person variations of vermin hunters no longer hunt vermin.
Canines and felines smaller than a dog cannot be trained for war, only hunting.
Very slow creatures, and creatures that curl up when threatened, can no longer be used as mounts.

Mantises and their variants can no longer fly.
Goblins can ride cave dragons.
Elves can ride giant desert scorpions.
Wild boars have learned how to gore enemies with their tusks.
Warthogs, chimpanzees, gorillas, muskoxen, orcas, sperm whales, and elephant seals aren't very friendly.
Hippos aren't benign either - in fact, they're prone to rage.
Giraffes cannot be trained for war or hunting.
There are twice as many jabberers in cavern biomes, they live twice as long, and they lay half again as many eggs. This is to compensate for their populations getting wrecked by Forgotten Beasts.
There are ten times as many giant cave spiders in cavern biomes. This is to compensate for their populations getting wrecked by Forgotten Beasts.
Giant mantises, giant ticks, giant moon snails, alligators, saltwater crocodiles, giant snapping turtles, giant leeches, giant axolotls, cave crocodiles, giant adders, giant anacondas, and giant pythons are AMBUSHPREDATORs.
Dragons cannot be trained for hunting, because they'll just melt the target and set everything on fire.
Brown recluse spider men & giant brown recluse spiders have webs thick enough to hold non-vermin prey.
Rabbits don't hibernate in winter.
Unicorns become adults at 3 years old, but aren't tamable.

The whole plant section seems to add a lot more complexity to farming, which is the opposite of what I want.
Seeds which grow on trees have hulls, and so can be gathered by an herbalist.
Nuts and legumes can be hulled to obtain their usable, tasty seeds in both Fortress and Adventure mode.
Shrubs with unobtainable seeds (e.g. onions) can be picked whole and processed to bag, like a quarry bush.
Plump helmets can be picked in adventure mode. To accommodate this, they are brewed as fruit in fortress mode.
Dwarves will no longer pick strawberry plants whole, nor try to eat them whole.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 12:54:25 pm by Ghills »
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Re: Modest Mod v0.40.24-2a
« Reply #182 on: December 01, 2015, 03:07:05 pm »

(snip)
Or the changes are biologically/historically inaccurate - scorpions do not have the body structure to handle being ridden

The grand majority of giant critters are ridable in vanilla, including giant bark scorpions. If this is an issue for you, you probably want to get into modding yourself and remove mount tags from those.

Quote
all animals that give live birth are milkable, humans included.

That's actually not true even in real life.

In vanilla, the grand majority of mammals aren't milkable, and that actually includes the animal people I've removed milkability from. The difference is that in vanilla it's because they aren't tamable. The change in the Modest Mod is that they aren't milkable even if you mod animal people tamable (as in the upcoming Everything Is Tamable module).

Quote
Humans use lots of animals for hunting that wouldn't produce human-eatable game following their natural instincts, so there's no reason to not have hunting dragons. They'd just be trained to use claws instead of fire, much like most hunting animals are trained to not damage the hunted animals.

Unfortunately AFAIK there's no way to mod dragons to not use their fire when hunting. And frankly, it's not the game/prey I'd be worried about hurting.

Quote
Giant and animal person variations of vermin hunters no longer hunt vermin.

I'm a little confused as to what your actual desired end state is. You think it's a problem for giant desert scorpions to be ridable because that's unrealistic, but you also think it's a problem for giant peregrine falcons (which are as big as a black bear) to not chase after normal-sized grasshoppers?

Quote
Canines and felines smaller than a dog cannot be trained for war, only hunting.

I should clarify that this restriction exists primarily to prevent invaders from showing up with War Lynxes and War Ocelots. The game's AI doesn't distinguish between sizes of war animals, so it'll sometimes send packs of war animals along with invaders that are comically undersized.

Quote
Very slow creatures, and creatures that curl up when threatened, can no longer be used as mounts.

Again, this is an invader AI issue. Have you ever been attacked by elves mounted on giant hedgehogs? The giant hedgehogs curl up at the first sign of trouble, while the elves refuse to get off their backs until they're slaughtered.

Quote
There are twice as many jabberers in cavern biomes, they live twice as long, and they lay half again as many eggs. This is to compensate for their populations getting wrecked by Forgotten Beasts.
There are ten times as many giant cave spiders in cavern biomes. This is to compensate for their populations getting wrecked by Forgotten Beasts.

These were replaced in later releases with doubling of cavern creature populations across the board.

Quote
The whole plant section seems to add a lot more complexity to farming, which is the opposite of what I want.

It doesn't, actually. It adds 1 new reaction, and allows other plants to be processed a la quarry bushes, so that you can obtain seeds that are unavailable in vanilla except through trade; and use tree nuts which are un-harvestable in vanilla.

Quote
Plump helmets can be picked in adventure mode. To accommodate this, they are brewed as fruit in fortress mode.

This was removed in a later version.

Quote
I think we have a very different view of what the issues with DF are, and I'm not interested in the changes you like.   It's a problem with any mod that relies on a person's subjective judgement - 'minimally invasive' to you is 'weird and bad' to me, and probably vice versa.

Well, you do you.

Thank you for going over your objections for me. I appreciate the opportunity to review my design decisions, even if I ultimately stand by them.
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dennislp3

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Re: Modest Mod v0.40.24-2a
« Reply #183 on: December 01, 2015, 03:11:17 pm »

New version out...Y U NO UPDATED FOR IT YET?!1??111
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Re: Modest Mod v0.40.24-2a
« Reply #184 on: December 01, 2015, 03:27:55 pm »

New version out...Y U NO UPDATED FOR IT YET?!1??111

You can find my explanation here.
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dennislp3

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Re: Modest Mod v0.40.24-2a
« Reply #185 on: December 01, 2015, 04:08:32 pm »

Good one
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DrunkGamer

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Re: Modest Mod v0.40.24-2a
« Reply #186 on: December 01, 2015, 04:19:29 pm »

New version out...Y U NO UPDATED FOR IT YET?!1??111

You can find my explanation here.

It might work without much changing, though. Maybe change some Entity_Default stuff, but I think the rest of the raw-related stuff wasn't really changed.

I might be awfuly wrong, so don't take my word as fact.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 04:23:47 pm by DrunkGamer »
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Ghills

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Re: Modest Mod v0.40.24-2a
« Reply #187 on: December 01, 2015, 05:00:49 pm »

Quote
There are twice as many jabberers in cavern biomes, they live twice as long, and they lay half again as many eggs. This is to compensate for their populations getting wrecked by Forgotten Beasts.
There are ten times as many giant cave spiders in cavern biomes. This is to compensate for their populations getting wrecked by Forgotten Beasts.

These were replaced in later releases with doubling of cavern creature populations across the board.

Quote
The whole plant section seems to add a lot more complexity to farming, which is the opposite of what I want.

It doesn't, actually. It adds 1 new reaction, and allows other plants to be processed a la quarry bushes, so that you can obtain seeds that are unavailable in vanilla except through trade; and use tree nuts which are un-harvestable in vanilla.

Quote
Plump helmets can be picked in adventure mode. To accommodate this, they are brewed as fruit in fortress mode.

This was removed in a later version.

Quote
I think we have a very different view of what the issues with DF are, and I'm not interested in the changes you like.   It's a problem with any mod that relies on a person's subjective judgement - 'minimally invasive' to you is 'weird and bad' to me, and probably vice versa.

Well, you do you.

Thank you for going over your objections for me. I appreciate the opportunity to review my design decisions, even if I ultimately stand by them.

Thanks for explaining why you made those design decisions. :)

I hadn't run into the invader-related issues, since I typically turn the invaders off. Once you explained those changes made sense.

It seems that the list of features isn't very clear, since I didn't pick up on the fact that several decisions had been rolled back. Maybe striking through those in the list would help?

I'm still very interested in an Accelerated-only mod if you ever make one.
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Ye know, being an usurper overseer gone mad with power isn't too bad. It's honestly not that different from being a normal overseer.
To summarize:
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daveralph1234

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Re: Modest Mod v0.40.24-2a
« Reply #188 on: December 01, 2015, 07:43:29 pm »

Is there any chance of getting the Accelerated mod without the Modest Mod changes?

Looking at the Accelerated raws, it seems that it comes bundled with all of the other changes in the Modest Mod. I'm not interested in the Modest Mod changes, but simplified materials would be very nice.

While it only changes stones, minerals and metals and was created for 0.34.11, you might want to check out my Simple Geology mod.
I don't believe there have been any RAW changes concerning stone types since .34 so I think it should still work with the latest DF versions, but no guarantees.

gchristopher

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Re: Modest Mod v0.40.24-2a
« Reply #189 on: December 02, 2015, 01:49:31 am »

Thanks again for all the work on Modest Mod, Button! Please post if you'd like volunteer assistance with updating.
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Ghills

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Re: Modest Mod v0.40.24-2a
« Reply #190 on: December 02, 2015, 11:31:07 am »

Is there any chance of getting the Accelerated mod without the Modest Mod changes?

Looking at the Accelerated raws, it seems that it comes bundled with all of the other changes in the Modest Mod. I'm not interested in the Modest Mod changes, but simplified materials would be very nice.

While it only changes stones, minerals and metals and was created for 0.34.11, you might want to check out my Simple Geology mod.
I don't believe there have been any RAW changes concerning stone types since .34 so I think it should still work with the latest DF versions, but no guarantees.

Thanks for the tip.

I'm mostly interested in not needing to scroll past umpteen leather bags when placing furniture, though. I suppose I'll take your Accelerated as a guide and put together a just-Accelerated mod if I can find the time.
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Ye know, being an usurper overseer gone mad with power isn't too bad. It's honestly not that different from being a normal overseer.
To summarize:
They do an epic face. If that fails, they beat said object to death with their beard.

cochramd

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Re: Modest Mod v0.40.24-2a
« Reply #191 on: December 03, 2015, 01:54:16 pm »

Speaking of Accelerated, I like the idea of having less types of animal products to scroll through, but hate the idea of having all my animal products have only 1x modifiers. Will there be any sort of Compromised Accelerated mod in the future?
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Re: Modest Mod v0.40.24-2a
« Reply #192 on: December 03, 2015, 02:09:15 pm »

Speaking of Accelerated, I like the idea of having less types of animal products to scroll through, but hate the idea of having all my animal products have only 1x modifiers. Will there be any sort of Compromised Accelerated mod in the future?

Quite possibly. However, keep in mind that compromises can make a com of pro and... wait.

Seriously though, it's easy to make decisions about what detail to include when your goal is a version that's as streamlined as reasonably possible; but a compromise version requires picking what to keep and what to discard.
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cochramd

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Re: Modest Mod v0.40.24-2a
« Reply #193 on: December 03, 2015, 02:24:39 pm »

Speaking of Accelerated, I like the idea of having less types of animal products to scroll through, but hate the idea of having all my animal products have only 1x modifiers. Will there be any sort of Compromised Accelerated mod in the future?

Quite possibly. However, keep in mind that compromises can make a com of pro and... wait.

Seriously though, it's easy to make decisions about what detail to include when your goal is a version that's as streamlined as reasonably possible; but a compromise version requires picking what to keep and what to discard.
Well, all I really care about is value modifiers. If you preserve those, everything else can be streamlined out the window for all I care. I have no idea what other people would want for a compromise though.
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InsanityPrelude

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Re: Modest Mod v0.40.24-2a
« Reply #194 on: December 06, 2015, 04:30:41 pm »

I think I saw a different mod (some version of Genesis?) do that by having a couple different leather templates- there was your ho-hum regular leather, but megabeasts etc. produced stronger and more valuable "tough leather".
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