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[Durin01]

Hi,

I am new to the game (as in I only played for a month now) but I read wiki and google ect. to normally learn what I need, but I can't find an answer to that.

So is it possible to secure a Fortress from above (I don't mean flyers).

The question is about two fortresses I made, the first one is I wanted to build something akin to this: http://media-curse.cursecdn.com/attachments/41/708/DwarfSlayerKeep.jpg
because awesome^^ lol, so I digged into a mountain range but ended up still putting defenses around the top because I didn't want enemies to climb down from above to circumvent my defenses below.

The second one I build a fortress on a map with a volcano, and breached the open "chamber" and had a cycolps climb down from above to wreak havoc on my smiths and magma forges. So I ended up smoothing parts of the top layers of the volcano to make it unclimable but it bugged me too. Also I don't know how siege engines work (never survived that long) and if smooth stone even works later on, and I really don't want nasty suprises later...

So is there a sure and secure way to prevent enemies to be able to climb down a wall into an open area of your fortress? What if I make surrounding floors and then remove the stairs so there won't be a wall to climb down from? Would that work? I just want them to try and breach my main entrance like they are "supposed" to^^ (Damn enemies not doing what I want ;-))

Just putting that out there robbing myself of the "Fun" of finding out what works and what doesn't.

[Naryar]

So is there a sure and secure way to prevent enemies to be able to climb down a wall into an open area of your fortress? What if I make surrounding floors and then remove the stairs so there won't be a wall to climb down from? Would that work? I just want them to try and breach my main entrance like they are "supposed" to^^ (Damn enemies not doing what I want ;-))

I would assume a ring of fortifications would do the job. People can't climb fortifications.

Also since you have a volcano you can make magma moats.

Also, archers and open spaces mean fun.

[pisskop]

It wasnt a huge problem until climbing became a thing.
  Walls used to do it.

  I still recommend walls, 2-3 zlevels high. 
Also consider abusing pathing.  By making a 'back entrance' and securing that with a tunnel that doubles back up and is blocked by a bridge or hatch.  The idea is to lure critters into your fort in a controlled fashion.

[Uggh]

Maybe I misunderstand your question, but what about a roof? Just build floors above the open space, beginning at the edge.

If you are completely new, I would skip siege engines. They are not that easy to set up in a useful manner and it's difficult to make dwarves operating them. They have other disadvantages, too.

[Durin01]

The thing is I can't build a back entrance to a volcano. It's just open from above, and my smithy is right on top of the magma layer. I just don't want them to get in from above / have to build two perimeters. In case of the volcano the entrance and the "above" are 24 z-levels apart. I don't have the military to support two fronts and running back and forth is tedious and not feasable if they siege both ends. I guess I could build it shut and channel magma inside or roof it, but having a secure open space is nice for refuse and beekeeping. Who climbs into a volcano anyhow?^^

I didn't know that fortifications were unclimbable. Kinda doesn't make sense, shouldn't they be even more climable than walls? Having spaces to set a foot in and all. I guess I'll try that then.
http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Climber only says that smooth stone is unclimbable, but it's hard to get those since you have to build it out if unmined stone.

[Uggh]

I think bees fly through open fortifications, so carving some into smoothed rock walls should work. Refuse management shouldn't be a problem with magma to drop it into.

But if you want open space safe from climber, maybe overhanging floors could work? Like this, seen from the side:

Code: [Select]

I          I
I          I
I--      --I
I          I
I----------I


[Dwarf4Explosives]

I think bees fly through open fortifications, so carving some into smoothed rock walls should work. Refuse management shouldn't be a problem with magma to drop it into.

But if you want open space safe from climber, maybe overhanging floors could work? Like this, seen from the side:

Code: [Select]

I          I
I          I
I--      --I
I          I
I----------I


I think that should do the job.

[Durin01]

Didn't know that about bees.
I thought about dropping refuse into magma, but I read about Magma Mist, and since my forges sit right on top the magma layer I didn't want to deal with that since I am still learning. http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Magma_mist

I thought about the overhanging floors too, but I wanted to be sure that work first. Having a cyclops climb into my forge was one thing, but a whole siege? Is there any documentation on how the path finding is with overhanging floors?

[Durin01]

How do any of you secure your fortress anyhow? I mean there are basically just three options or not?
- Having a above ground wall fortification on all sides and being a total Hilldwarf ;-)
- A single 3x3x1(z) tunnel entrance which doesn't project the glory of your fort to the outside (I know "who cares?" ... I do)
- or a carved out mountain entrance with a courtyard wich is vulnerable from "behind/above" the mountain.

Am I missing something?

[Uggh]

The easiest in terms of maintenance is the trap filled corridor with a detour for caravans. Basically, you dig into the earth and have everything underground. A direct path (1 tile wide is enough) to your fortress is lined with traps  to hold off any invaders. Invaders always take the shortest path. A winding path (at least 3 tiles wide, better more in case incoming and outgoing caravans meet each other) gives access to caravans with wagons.
Basically like this:

Code: [Select]

     WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
     .........TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTD.........
     .........WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW.........--> depot
     .........W                                    W.........
     WWWWWW...W                                    W...WWWWWW
     .....W...W                                    W...W
     .....W...W                                    W...W
     .....W...W                                    W...W
     .....W...W                                    W...W
     .....W...W                                    W...W
     .....W...W                                    W...W
     .....W...WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW...W
     .....W............................................W
     .....W............................................W
     .....W............................................W
     .....WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

T - trap
W - wall
D- door
. - empty floor

I would also add drawbridges to seal off the two passages, just in case.

[Durin01]

The easiest in terms of maintenance is the trap filled corridor with a detour for caravans. Basically, you dig into the earth and have everything underground. A direct path (1 tile wide is enough) to your fortress is lined with traps  to hold off any invaders. Invaders always take the shortest path. A winding path (at least 3 tiles wide, better more in case incoming and outgoing caravans meet each other) gives access to caravans with wagons.
Basically like this:

Code: [Select]

     WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
     .........TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTD.........
     .........WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW.........--> depot
     .........W                                    W.........
     WWWWWW...W                                    W...WWWWWW
     .....W...W                                    W...W
     .....W...W                                    W...W
     .....W...W                                    W...W
     .....W...W                                    W...W
     .....W...W                                    W...W
     .....W...W                                    W...W
     .....W...WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW...W
     .....W............................................W
     .....W............................................W
     .....W............................................W
     .....WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

T - trap
W - wall
D- door
. - empty floor

I would also add drawbridges to seal off the two passages, just in case.

yes thats the tunnel entrance I am using at the moment, but is it possible to secure something like this:

Code: [Select]

     WWWWWWWWWWWWMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
     W:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::M
     W:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::M
     W:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::M
     W:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::M
     W:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::WWWW
     B:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::B...
     B:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::B...
     B:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::B...
     W:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::WWWW
     W:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::M
     W:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::M
     W:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::M
     W:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::M
     WWWWWWWWWWWWMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

T - trap
W - wall
M - mountain z-level differs
B - Bridge
D - door
. - roofed floor
: - open floor

without having to worry about enemies climbing down from the mountain walls into the courtyard with the depot / pastures? I mean you could wall the whole thing in with stepped walls or one gigantic one, but then you are just building an above ground fortress not an entrance to a mountain.

[Detros]

But if you want open space safe from climber, maybe overhanging floors could work? Like this, seen from the side:

Code: [Select]

I          I
I          I
I--      --I
I          I
I----------I


See http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8160#c32077. Overhangs and fortifications may not be enough to stop climbers (coming from below, though, in that report) as of now.

[Uggh]

But wouldn't it keep them coming from above? Whatever, good to know, thanks for the hint which might have saved my fort.

[Uggh]

To op, if you really want a safe entrance without disturbing the aesthetics of the portal, maybe you could wall of the area somewhere else on the backside of the mountain?

[Sadrice]

Refuse management shouldn't be a problem with magma to drop it into.

Dumping into magma can be an issue if you don't dump it from high enough.  I had an outbreak of unexplained burns, including an incinerated weaponsmith, before I figured out what I was doing wrong.  Magma mist can go 3 tiles up and outward, so make sure to drop from at least 4 Zs above the surface of the magma, like so:

Code: [Select]

##########
# Dump from here
# ########
# ##
# ##
Magma

You mentioned your forge level is directly above the magma sea.  Did you make sure to place the solid tile (the darker green Xs when placing the building) of the smelters and forges above the hole in the floor?  There are magma dwelling creatures like fire imps and magma crabs that can attack your dwarves and set your fuel stockpile on fire.  Blocking the hole with the unwalkable tile of the workshop prevents this. 

If there are no other open access points to the magma sea (like, say, your waste disposal chute), then building destroyers can't hurt the workshops from below.  However, it can be hard to absolutely guarantee there is no other access (especially if you have a disposal chute), and due to an oddity in how building destroyers work, if they in theory could access a building from another angle, they can destroy it from otherwise invalid directions, like from below.  This means that if some magma men or fire men show up, or if a forgotten beast or other large nasty manages to get into the magma sea (and is capable of surviving there), it could get in through the forges.  For this reason it's usually best to somehow (pumps, channels, or minecarts) move some magma to a secure area for your industries, rather than building directly over the magma sea.  However,  I'm lazy and usually don't do that.

As for securing a mountain side, as others have said, smoothing the top, making fortifications, or making an overhang should stop climbers coming down.  It may be best to put a wall on top of the mountain, blocking access to the cliff, and smooth that instead, to prevent them from coming up to the edge of the cliff and shooting down at your dwarves below.

Don't worry about siege engines.  Invaders don't use them, and you shouldn't either, since their useless.  If you like the idea of siege engines, and want something similar, I recommend minecarts.  You could simply have tracks running down your entrance hall, and crush the enemies with a train of lead minecarts, or you could actually launch the carts at them, or you could crash a filled cart hard against a wall, launching the contents of the cart forward and 1 Z up.  If you throw weapons at them, the weapons will actually use the correct attack, rather than just bashing them, so if you train your smiths by having them pump out copper weapons, keep them around to launch at invaders (or put in weapon traps) rather than selling them to caravans.  Boulders are also an effective weapon.  The most effective weapon is actually water, since during flight it is simulated as a solid (and rather heavy) boulder of water, and liquids can be automatically loaded for reliable operation and a high rate of fire.  Magma could be used, but it is much more difficult to set up, and is only marginally more effective.