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Author Topic: Nobody Poops  (Read 43514 times)

BoredVirulence

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Re: Nobody Poops
« Reply #285 on: May 12, 2015, 01:23:12 pm »

The poll I remember was undecided with 344 (44.2%) voting yes, 352 (45.2%) no, and 83 (10.7%) yes with an init option to disable.

This literally translates into 54.9% in favor that it should exist, whether they plan on using its features or not. That's the majority.
Just because some people don't care for it, and some actively despise it does not make it the as controversial as you seem to think. On the contrary, while not everyone agrees, this thread has been overwhelmingly positive.

Just because a group of people despises something doesn't mean it shouldn't exist. You remind me of the people trying to convince Bethesda to remove giant spiders from Skyrim.

-snip as I don't think this was aimed at me-

I was and always have argued in favour of it being added. I suspect you are mistaking my intent in the post you quote and possibly attributing to me the posts of others...

No Vattic, I'm using your extracted data to argue with others. We can argue about the validity of the data all we like, but I'm specifically using it against this claim:
...
That's a pretty odd definition of 'like'.  Wonder of wonders, I consider the 10% who demand the ability to turn it off to not actually want it.

For the record, people like you Vattic, our forums sentient search feature's multiple personalities (Especially Footkerchief), provide a great service to the community.
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Vattic

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Re: Nobody Poops
« Reply #286 on: May 12, 2015, 02:49:28 pm »

My apologies, shouldn't have assumed your quoting me meant you were talking to me.

I sadly haven't seen Footkerchief around these parts in a while.
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BoredVirulence

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Re: Nobody Poops
« Reply #287 on: May 13, 2015, 09:00:13 am »

My apologies, shouldn't have assumed your quoting me meant you were talking to me.

I sadly haven't seen Footkerchief around these parts in a while.

Ehh, quick glance mistake. I typically quote the other person when I'm directing my topic toward them, but I was too lazy to decompose that quote multiple times. I assumed by context it would be obvious who I was addressing.

I like to think Footkerchief is in the middle of a particularly difficult search. But I also like to picture him as a sentient search function.


Just to pretend to be on topic. I vote poop. I'm certain its implementation won't be an underground, brown version of uncontrolled cave adaption.
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Meph

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Re: Nobody Poops
« Reply #288 on: May 17, 2015, 06:21:07 am »

Until Dwarf AI gets way the fuck better, and the game is optimized again so it doesn't use up so much resources, I'd really -really- hate to see this.

Even if it was added, it should be called 'waste' probably.

Who says these things should not happen first? I ask for a Masterwork style grouping of, for example, "x animal leather" items into just "leather" items, which can make the game run a quarter faster than it does now.
This is not true. It helps FPS, but not that much. There were many small tweaks all over the game to get the ~25% higher FPS that Accelerated DF has. Masterwork on the other hands has too many scripts and features by now, it mostly depends on your personal setting by now. Rendermax light and Multilevel-view lowers your FPS.
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Greenfire88

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Re: Nobody Poops
« Reply #289 on: May 18, 2015, 03:23:32 pm »

Sorry for not reading all of this thread, but I just want to throw my two cents in.
If this were added, it would defiantly be an init option, just like temperature. Realistically dealing with waste would be hell, as waste can easily become the breeding grounds for disease. This could go two ways, the first being that waste can be quantum - stockpiled, and the second being it can not. The first would probably result in the waste just being a hassle in the background that can be easily dealt with through trickery. The second means that waste becomes a huge issue, that has a high probability of flooding your fort and making it unplayable. I personally wouldn't care if it was added and I could turn it off, but if it was not possible to turn off, well, that would mean that the game just told me I wasn't allowed to configure it.
Keep in mind that I haven't really read this threat so I might be opposing against people that don't exist or just generally saying something stupid, either way, you should probably just ignore this post.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Nobody Poops
« Reply #290 on: May 18, 2015, 04:37:56 pm »

Sorry for not reading all of this thread, but I just want to throw my two cents in.
If this were added, it would defiantly be an init option, just like temperature. Realistically dealing with waste would be hell, as waste can easily become the breeding grounds for disease. This could go two ways, the first being that waste can be quantum - stockpiled, and the second being it can not. The first would probably result in the waste just being a hassle in the background that can be easily dealt with through trickery. The second means that waste becomes a huge issue, that has a high probability of flooding your fort and making it unplayable. I personally wouldn't care if it was added and I could turn it off, but if it was not possible to turn off, well, that would mean that the game just told me I wasn't allowed to configure it.
Keep in mind that I haven't really read this threat so I might be opposing against people that don't exist or just generally saying something stupid, either way, you should probably just ignore this post.

Well, let's see if you care to read any responses to what you posted, then:

Anyway, of relevance:
From a Reddit article:
Quote from: ToadyOne
I like fertilizer, animal tracking and sewers. I dislike potty breaks. This is an example of realism that I think has a lot of potential for trouble. Potty breaks in adventure mode might be realistic, but there are immersion issues there. He he he, I mean in the sense of the player being kicked out of their groove. The other kind of immersion wouldn't be so bad, because sewers are common adventure environments. In dwarf mode, dwarves already take a lot of time out for self-maintenance, and this would be a more senseless kind, compared to something like eating.

In the Improved Farming Revised thread, there was a segment to argue for it, specifically

If waste is implemented in the game, I'm about 99.9% certain it will not be simply stockpiled and disposed of with trickery, but a required resource to make farming function, since Toady has basically said that's what he wants to do.

Making that an init function might be possible, but it would require significant raws changes to make up for the fact that you just killed the main method by which farms are sustained, and non-grazing animals will presumably not go without food forever. 
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Graknorke

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Re: Nobody Poops
« Reply #291 on: May 18, 2015, 04:52:22 pm »

When has it ever been the case that human waste has been not just used but absolutely crucial for a society's agriculture?
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Corona688

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Re: Nobody Poops
« Reply #292 on: May 18, 2015, 05:58:10 pm »

Gritty realistic pee and poop simulation nonetheless do not generally form a part of fantasy games, however, for reasons most find obvious.  We don't care about it very much.  Perhaps even the opposite of care.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Nobody Poops
« Reply #293 on: May 18, 2015, 06:23:14 pm »

Gritty realistic pee and poop simulation nonetheless do not generally form a part of fantasy games, however, for reasons most find obvious.  We don't care about it very much.  Perhaps even the opposite of care.

Gritty realistic depictions of geology and mineral deposits found within specific types of layer stone, detailed organism lifecycles and biology, recordings of every random animal attack on a town being preserved for the purposes of engraving site histories, procedural advancement of towns to cities, and many other components of Dwarf Fortress are generally not found in fantasy games.

Dwarf Fortress is not just a generic fantasy game.  In fact, I don't think Toady even really sets out for it to be a game so much as a performance art project anymore.  Your argument is at best irrelevant without reasoning why this should be pretty much the only thing in the performance art project where realism doesn't matter.

(And as a reminder, squeemishness is not a particularly valid excuse in a game where we can eat kittens, watch it go through our external intestines we drag on the floor behind us, and then vomit uncontrollably with all our best buddies when we reach sunlight, then collect said vomit in pools we drown elves in before dropping them through dismembering pits so we can carve their bones into trinkets we can trade back to them.)
« Last Edit: May 18, 2015, 06:27:33 pm by NW_Kohaku »
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Nobody Poops
« Reply #294 on: May 19, 2015, 10:27:22 am »

When has it ever been the case that human waste has been not just used but absolutely crucial for a society's agriculture?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_soil

It was especially important in China.
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Nobody Poops
« Reply #295 on: May 19, 2015, 10:29:46 am »

Gritty realistic pee and poop simulation nonetheless do not generally form a part of fantasy games, however, for reasons most find obvious.  We don't care about it very much.  Perhaps even the opposite of care.

There is no "we" here. The abject terror some people here have of excretion and sexuality would be funny if it were not so tragic.
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Graknorke

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Re: Nobody Poops
« Reply #296 on: May 21, 2015, 08:39:29 am »

squeemishness is not a particularly valid excuse
Toady decreased the value of mermaid bones because of the mermaid farming incident. Squeamishness definitely plays a factor.

When has it ever been the case that human waste has been not just used but absolutely crucial for a society's agriculture?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_soil

It was especially important in China.
Can you find anything about how important it was for the effectiveness of farming? All that I can see on that page is that it was necessary due to damage to waste disposal infrastructure, rather than being needed for agriculture.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 08:43:28 am by Graknorke »
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Vattic

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Re: Nobody Poops
« Reply #297 on: May 21, 2015, 07:17:48 pm »

It mentions that in Japan people would buy human waste for use as fertiliser, it also mentions a number of other examples and the list is not complete. Non-human waste has also always been a common fertiliser. This implies they recognised the same benefits that are recognised today. Admittedly there are sanitation issues that middle ages technology wouldn't be able to solve, but this didn't and doesn't stop people. There are other historically appropriate fertilisers like the one we have already (potash), a few mineral sources, and other organic waste like compost.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Nobody Poops
« Reply #298 on: May 21, 2015, 08:24:21 pm »

squeemishness is not a particularly valid excuse
Toady decreased the value of mermaid bones because of the mermaid farming incident. Squeamishness definitely plays a factor.

That wasn't squeamishness of players, however.  You're just as capable of making mermaid bone crafts as you are goblin bone crafts.  The difference is merely in the extremely inflated value, (50 times normal!) which implies that it's the actual in-world characters simply no longer paying a premium to buy mermaid soap, although they still will buy it. 

Rather, the original intent seems to have been to make mermaid stuff expensive because it was supposed to be nearly impossible to get mermaid materials to carve, so that dwarves would embark on beaches and just wait for mermaids to beach themselves and air-drown.  When it turned out that it wasn't quite as hard as he'd thought, he made them cheaper.

Nothing was done to prevent mermaid genocide, or for that matter, things like babyfalls or other forms of atrocity players might commit.

When has it ever been the case that human waste has been not just used but absolutely crucial for a society's agriculture?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_soil

It was especially important in China.
Can you find anything about how important it was for the effectiveness of farming? All that I can see on that page is that it was necessary due to damage to waste disposal infrastructure, rather than being needed for agriculture.

It's nigh-mandatory for farming in an age before the Haber-Bosch Process. (Early 20th century.)

Just think of it this way: Every time you grow something, you're pulling nutrients out of the ground.  Conservation of matter demands that if you're to keep growing things, you need to put more nutrients back in.  Using human waste as fertilizer creates a closed loop, preserving the nutrients within the artificial ecosystem of a farm.  Exporting crops and failing to reintroduce the waste produced as a side-effect means nutrients leak from the system, and forces their replacement. 

In fact, currently, our modern world's lack of properly shipping the waste back to the farms to keep the loop closed has been fed by a reliance upon artificial fertilizers, while the nitrogen, especially, that are in the waste or in runoff after being applied carelessly gets dumped into rivers, which cause tremendous ecological damage in the waterways as surface algae blooms in abundance and chokes out much of the aquatic life.  In extreme cases, it causes dead zones, like in the Gulf of Mexico.  In the Gulf of Mexico, dead zone patches notably have pink water and smell like a rotten egg because the only life that can survive there are sulfur-based single-cell organisms. 

In any event, in the ancient and medieval world, waste was used for far more than just farming.  Lant, which is basically ammonia, is derived from decomposed urine, and was a primary cleaning agent then, as it generally is used, today. The Romans washed their clothes in the stuff.  It was also crucial for the dyeing industry, as lant was used as the agent that carried the organic dyes into the fibers of cloth. 

In fact, it even was used as a "glaze" on top of pastries to make them look shinier.

(Both solid and liquid waste were also used in the production of salt peter, which is a prime component of black powder/gunpowder, as well.  Urine is the body's way of eliminating nitrogen, and basically ALL explosives are nitrogen-based.)

The use of waste was so critical that in many towns in Medieval Europe, it was actually against the law to throw away one's waste.  (Mainly, towns that were reliant upon the textile industry, which needed lant for the dyeing itself, and the fields where the plants used in the cloth and dye production were produced.)

For detailed explanations on how it could work in-game, see here.
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
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PFunk

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Re: Nobody Poops
« Reply #299 on: May 26, 2015, 10:55:00 pm »

The importance of shit in any fair approximation of the medieval village existence can be summed up in this Monty Python bit:

https://youtu.be/Hi8vXOUi-eI?t=94
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