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Author Topic: USA election system  (Read 24967 times)

Fenrir

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Re: USA election system
« Reply #60 on: February 28, 2008, 09:45:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Old School Gamer:
<STRONG>That's the problem with having an open mind,  new information makes its way in quite often and then you have to rethink a million other things.

Makes me wish I'd been born when there were 5,000 people on the earth and the only thing to think about was "Now, just how can I catch that antelope over there and roast him up good?".

Nowadays there's just too many of us bastages around, we're all competing for the same piece of pie,  and it seems the system is biased towards people having to do things that they do not enjoy to survive.

(ie serving a large corporation just piling and unpiling papers all day in the same monotonous way ad infinitum week by week, and having to say every week "Oh joy, it's thursday again, soon it will be friday, and then once that's over I can pretend for a brief blink of a second that I am really free")

Something about that really irks me,  and the alternative, that being wearing a loincloth and foraging for berries while outrunning cave bears and singing war songs seems quite pleasant in comparison.

Why are people so afraid to have an opinion today which isn't gov'mt certified, and why is it that everytime the television is turned on I feel a building anger at the entire bullshit that streams out of the speakers and screen.

Our country is basically mirroring the arc that Germany took circa 1935+,  but people just seem to want to accept their dismal fate as corporate tool/slave and not actually stand up for anything anymore.

The declaration of independence took balls to sign when it was signed, we say that our country is the "home of the brave", but it really seems to be the home of the weak and limp, who are ruled by the avaricious tyrannical evil mothafuckers.

Yet somehow people are willing to show allegiance to this system.  Maybe there's not enough forest and berries to go around, or maybe it just would not be an easy enough existence for most of the overweight Mcdonald's eating tools that live in this country.

Clearly this planet has too many of us on it.

Edit: Take out bad grammar!  Me did Gud!

[ February 28, 2008: Message edited by: Old School Gamer ]</STRONG>


Agreed. Maybe everyone clicked on the link in Muffles' sig. All their brain are belong to him.
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Forumsdwarf

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Re: USA election system
« Reply #61 on: February 28, 2008, 04:17:00 pm »

Well, while we're publishing our manifestos ...

I used to be a pacifist, but around 9/11 I came to learn that apostasy in Islam is punishable by death and realized that the freedom to choose ones own ideas was worth killing to preserve.
Theo van Gogh's death almost meant more to me than 9/11 ... almost.  They've been after Salman Rushdie for years because he wrote a book.  9/11 was just an extension of an impulse of brutal suppression of freedom of thought which has existed ever since human beings first looked up at the sky and saw God instead of fusing hydrogen ... then thought that what they saw was so compelling others must be forced to see it, too.
Many of our ancestors starting with the 30 Years' War shed a lot of blood to give us the gift of freedom of conscience.  I cannot abide their freeing us from the tyranny of one religion just so we could surrender to another.
In Canada it has already begun: under Section 13 of their Human Rights Code it is a hate crime to criticize Islam.  Martin Luther is turning in his grave.
America stands for something else.  We don't have a Section 13 ... we have the First Amendment.  We will kill for it -- and some will die for it.  If you find that appalling, I suggest you pray for peace -- you'll need the practice for the day when prayer is no longer optional.

 

quote:
Why are people so afraid to have an opinion today which isn't gov'mt certified ...
Our country is basically mirroring the arc that Germany took circa 1935+

So you're, what, the first who's ever dreamed up that zinger?  You can't swing a dead cat without hitting someone comparing Americans to Nazis or Bush to Hitler, yet all of you think of yourselves as some kind of lone voice in the wilderness, as if Mike Godwin was thinking your name when he wrote his eponymous law.
I know it's tough to be brave when you fear a knock at the door from the Brownshirts or Gestapo, but I suppose on some level it's even tougher when the dreaded knock turns out to be the pizza delivery.
Some morning must come for every person like you when you wake up, look in the mirror, and realize you're not seeing Anne Frank, just plain old Frank.
"A hundred billion bottles washed up on the shore ..." -Sting

Edit: spelling

[ February 28, 2008: Message edited by: Forumsdwarf ]

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Wiles

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Re: USA election system
« Reply #62 on: February 28, 2008, 05:21:00 pm »

quote:
In Canada it has already begun: under Section 13 of their Human Rights Code it is a hate crime to criticize Islam. Martin Luther is turning in his grave.  

Holy paraphrasing, Batman!

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Forumsdwarf

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Re: USA election system
« Reply #63 on: February 28, 2008, 06:55:00 pm »

Cut the knot, didn't it?
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Wiles

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Re: USA election system
« Reply #64 on: February 28, 2008, 07:15:00 pm »

It was probably about as accurate as saying the American right to bear arms is "the right to shoot my neighbour in the face 'cause he looked at my daughter funny"   ;)
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Earthquake Damage

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Re: USA election system
« Reply #65 on: February 28, 2008, 07:22:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Forumsdwarf:
<STRONG>In Canada it has already begun: under Section 13 of their Human Rights Code it is a hate crime to criticize Islam.  Martin Luther is turning in his grave.</STRONG>

A brief Wikipedia search suggests Section 13 states instead that an employer cannot discriminate by religion and similar things (things which, I should add, are familiar to US citizens).  The blurb is about three lines long and contains no direct quotes, though.

Excerpt please.

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Wiles

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Re: USA election system
« Reply #66 on: February 28, 2008, 07:26:00 pm »

I don't have a link, but there's a part about stopping "hate propoganda", which is probably what they were referring to. Calling it a law about religious criticisms is a gross oversimplification

[ February 28, 2008: Message edited by: Wiles ]

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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: USA election system
« Reply #67 on: February 28, 2008, 07:33:00 pm »

"The USA" can mean either its government or its people. It is democratic, Constitutional, and oriented toward free markets. It has a very small Constitution, designed primarily to outline the structure of the highest levels of government and democracy in the country and the limitations of its power. The Constitution is respected as the supreme law of the land and is enforced strictly and interpreted carefully by the Supreme Court, which is made up of extremely knowledgeable people appointed by the President and Congress, but is largely immune from political pressure. The rules governing democracy are sometimes archaic and result in a lot of head-scratching from foreign observers and even many domestic voters, but there is a high resistance to changing the systems by which democracy operate.

The United States is the world's oldest surviving federation, which is part of why it can survive despite being so large -- many of the functions of government are not handled by the national government, or are only partially dealt with by it, with other important issues decided on a regional level by fifty different lower level States that have their own Constitutions and governments act like small countries, just without foreign policy (though they often have local military of sorts through the National Guard), and with restrictions preventing any particular State from taking actions that would be considered either oppressive towards its own people or overly disruptive to the economy or well-being of the rest of the country. The States are prohibited from negotiating independently with foreign countries or from enacting any sort of trade barriers, so that the States have a unified foreign policy and military stance through the Federal Government, and a high level of domestic stability and economic diversification.

The people of the United States are fairly religious, nationalistic, and (on the balance) tend to be more ideologically capitalist than those in Europe. Economic regulations are seen as suspicious and economically dangerous, while strong national patriotism and concern for freedom and liberty are considered to be very "American". The people regard the military as noble public servants, and generals and other military figures are extremely highly respected, though the usage of the military -- that is, the actions of civilian leadership over the military -- is not as enshrined, and the military is traditionally politically neutral, a practice which has been respected since the country's founding. Tolerance and free speech are highly held principles, but the extent of their application varies.

Due to a high level of religious freedom, and a prohibition on government interference in religious matters, the US is one of, if not the single most religiously diverse country in the entire world. Religious lobbies that use secular arguments to back their viewpoint are well respected, but purely religious arguments are frowned upon due to the principle of separation of church and state.

The political culture of the United States holds the government as a useful and necessary evil, but not to be trusted too far. Public television and radio are known and popular with a limited audience but are much weaker than in many other countries; government-funded media are considered highly suspect, as they are potential outlets for propaganda. The US private media corporations are among the most well-financed, independent, and diverse in the world. Private media corporations regularly broadcast public debates and interviews involving commentators, academics, and politicians of every color of political viewpoint, and frequently give voice to protests and criticism of the government. This all takes place without receiving threats of censorship from the government being criticized -- even hatred and prejudice are considered protected speech. Media bias is totally legal, but at the same time, the people of the United States expect an unbiased media. The interpretation of "unbiased" varies widely, depending on the viewer; the media is widely criticized by those who feel their viewpoints are underrepresented, and even journalists participate in the habitual introspection about whether the media is properly serving the public good. Many people see the media as an ally of the government against the public, while just as many or more see it as an ally of the public against the government.

Entertainment in the United States is a huge and extremely varied industry. It varies from lurid pornography to religious music and almost anything imaginable in between. (Dwarf Fortress, incidentally, comes from the United States.) In general, the broadcast media is fast paced, exciting, and inundated in advertising by private companies, nonprofit corporations, political causes. Reality TV and game shows handing out vast amounts of money to common people are very popular, as are sitcoms about seemingly normal people in everyday situations. Other popular themes vary from gruesome horror films to violent and heroic war stories to educational children's shows. The diversity of the US media has been a driving force behind an immense degree of "cultural imperialism", not driven by the government at all, as American media artifacts are exported to every corner of the globe.

Many people around the world find employment and are lifted from abject poverty by the manufacture of cheap trinkets or other consumer goods that the people of the US don't need and wouldn't miss, but buy anyway, much to the benefit of those making them. Others find the wealth of American investors to be the infusion needed to establish companies in impoverished places in the globe. The US government and its people donate immense amounts of money, food, and medicine to less well-off places around the world.

The United States is a country of tremendous wealth, knowledge, and power, supported by democratic traditions and domestic freedoms. Its military history is sometimes checkered, and other bad things have come from it, but these are reigned in by free criticism of the government and an intense desire by its people to be the "good guys" in the world, plus an easily inflamed public anti-government sentiment that the government does more to protect than to suppress. Public desire for a just government, freedom for its people, and a respect for human rights, in a federation where diverse States let you just move to pick your government through what part of the country you live in -- some have the death penalty, others ban it, some allow gays to marry, others ban it, some have great education systems, others give a lower tax burden -- all in all, the USA is a Pretty Good Country, where you can be what you want to be, the government doesn't breathe down your neck, and hard work and smarts are rewarded.

I know that a lot of people around the world and even in this thread think the current government of the USA is absolutely abhorrent, through its military policies and practices in Iraq and the War on Terror in particular. Luckily, the USA is a democracy that allows criticism of the government.

Today, a large majority of the people of the United States regret that the government decided to invade Iraq, and both of the two dominant political parties are on the verge of nominating candidates for the Presidency that have vehemently opposed what is widely seen as inhumane torture on the part of their government in the prosecution of the "War on Terror".

It's not been the brightest eight years of US history, but there's more to the USA than just its government. Even so, may the next four be better.

Edit: Grumble grumble "ubb code" bleh...

[ February 28, 2008: Message edited by: Jonathan S. Fox ]

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Fenrir

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Re: USA election system
« Reply #68 on: February 28, 2008, 08:23:00 pm »

The posted XXwall of textXX strikes Fenrir in the eyes.
The shot glances away.
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Old School Gamer

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Re: USA election system
« Reply #69 on: February 28, 2008, 08:51:00 pm »

It wasn't meant to be a zinger.  Fact is, we're all rolling over for a coming dictatorship of some kind here, in whatever garb it arrives in.  There are laws being passed behind the scenes to cut off every right that we have, etc.

People know about it, but the information control which the gubmint has over us essentially keeps the populace sedated and completely controlled.

There is an emergence of many 'lone voices', because no one else will pick up the chorus.

So yeah, we're all fucked, and essentially we americans will have done nothing to stop it when it arrives.  I personally believe that it has nothing to do with ability, because we have been so masterfully conned that there is no doing that can be done to fix it.

We're mostly uneducated morons anyway,  they've made a point to educate us only as far as we're then able to run factories and push paper, which is part of the overall plan.

For awhile now, it's been the political elite turning the majority into a weak feeble and cowardly mass of thralls to do their bidding.  They've done it well, I'll give them that.  But it's impossible now to convince the majority of anything other than what is presented as correct by the television.

We are plugged in to mass media, we have an addiction to it as a nation, and as a result we do a whole hell of a lot of sitting, and absolutely no doing.

Go out and protest on a streetcorner here, you'll get a lot of funny looks, some honks, and then you'll go home and wonder what you did it for.  You will get harassed by the police as well, and if there is a large gathering for protest, it will surely be squashed by masses of officers who think they are doing the right thing.

So that is the situation.  This is why you hear americans pronouncing things like this in various forums, but not doing anything.  You can't ask a lethargic populace to make anything of themselves other than what they already are.

My grammar here is pretty horrible, but it's good enough to write emails to whatever boss I'll ever have in whatever corporate office I work in, so I suppose I'm properly government certified.

There is that problem of my own and other lone voices' disbelief in the government however, but that will no doubt be taken care of in due time.   Welcome to 2008.

Edit:  I should note here too, that in the debates in our current 'election', there has been absolutely no mention of these behind the scenes laws which are being passed;  the 'issues' as they've been planted into the american social consciousness are supposedly health care, the war on iraq, and a few other things.

The behind the scenes laws are called
presidential directives (link).

Some of the laws that have been passed in this way since 2001 have made it so that anti-war protest is a crime,  have set up the initial framework for an agency to decide just how 'american' each american is, and have files on every american, among a bevy of other heinous shit.  This absolutely, positively is exactly the same thing that Germany was doing in the 30's under Hitler.  The comparison is drawn so much, because there are people who recognize that history repeats itself, and that it is repeating itself here.

Edit #2:  If you have the DISH satellite network, check out the deeply buried in shit channels channel 9410 and 9415;  free speech tv and link tv.  They'll give you a much more thorough explanation of what's going on.  And check out
indymedia.org -- holy crap, independent media? it can't be!

[ February 28, 2008: Message edited by: Old School Gamer ]

[ February 28, 2008: Message edited by: Old School Gamer ]

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Forumsdwarf

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Re: USA election system
« Reply #70 on: February 28, 2008, 09:24:00 pm »

quote:
I don't have a link

S'ok.  I have a couple.

MacLean's article on a pending Section 13 case.

Note the magazine's lawyers aren't defending the editor on the basis of free speech, a right Canadians don't explicitly have, but on the grounds that the category of speech doesn't fall under Section 13, i.e. guilt or innocence rests on what a Canadian human rights tribunal decides is "hate speech".

Here's an excerpt of Ezra Levant, editor of "The Western Standard", defending himself at his Section 13 hearing: Entitled to my opinion?  I wish that were a fact.

The Calgary Herald doesn't like Section 13.  Not all Canadians do.

There's another important recent case of Canadian censorship relating to the Sponsorship Scandal.  The censorship imposed by government officials to cover it up proved more outrageous than the scandal itself.  It's not relevant to this topic -- it's a "scandal" precisely because it doesn't reflect Canadian values as Section 13 presumably does -- but if you're Canadian it's worth a Google.

Censorship (excepting self-censorship, of which the world needs a great deal more) is almost always more dangerous than the ideas the censors claim to be protecting us from, and its potential for misuse and corruption by those who wield it should be self-evident from its history.

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Forumsdwarf

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Re: USA election system
« Reply #71 on: February 28, 2008, 10:00:00 pm »

quote:
we're all rolling over for a coming dictatorship of some kind here, in whatever garb it arrives in

Probably dressed as someone who believes the will of the people and hence democracy itself is null-and-void because the people are mind-controlled thralls of a mysteriously invisible but very bad and evil "Them".
Only an elite few such as yourself have the wisdom to see through the puppetmasters' trickery, and it is therefore only you who are fit to rule.  Lucky you.

I'd guess dictatorship would come looking something like that.

[ February 28, 2008: Message edited by: Forumsdwarf ]

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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: USA election system
« Reply #72 on: February 28, 2008, 10:20:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Old School Gamer:
<STRONG>Fact is, we're all rolling over for a coming dictatorship of some kind here, in whatever garb it arrives in.  There are laws being passed behind the scenes to cut off every right that we have, etc.</STRONG>

Laws cannot be passed "behind the scenes" in this country. Everything that happens in both legislative chambers is broadcast live on cable television, and witnesses and journalists from the general public and the media attend lawmaking session daily.

Executive orders (of which presidential directives are a (sometimes) secret subset) are not laws. The President of the United States is prohibited from attempting to use an executive order to make law. Executive orders are just instructions for how Federal agencies should carry out their duties. For example, you can review the list of presidential directives issued by George W. Bush. Executive orders, and presidential directives by extension, are expressly unable to "cut off" rights guaranteed by the Constitution or even by normal law.

quote:
Originally posted by Old School Gamer:
<STRONG>People know about it, but the information control which the gubmint has over us essentially keeps the populace sedated and completely controlled.</STRONG>

So get off your butt and go to a library. You can find everything here, from bomb recipes, instructions for hacking, manufacturing drugs, and modding guns into automatics to radical conspiracy theories, hateful propaganda, and Hitler's Mein Kampf.

quote:
Originally posted by Old School Gamer:
<STRONG>We're mostly uneducated morons anyway,  they've made a point to educate us only as far as we're then able to run factories and push paper, which is part of the overall plan.</STRONG>

Even elementary school education in the USA covers citizen actions and criticism of the current government and the historic actions of the US, lionizing those who spoke out and transformed the nation for freedom and human justice, fighting against government tyranny in the past. If you only know how to push paper or run a factory, and not how to be a thoughtful and active citizen, then do something right for yourself and enroll in a liberal arts college. It's not even that expensive if you attend a local State school, and if you're poor you can get scholarships and subsidized loans. Even a local community college will do a half-decent job of it.

quote:
Originally posted by Old School Gamer:
<STRONG>For awhile now, it's been the political elite turning the majority into a weak feeble and cowardly mass of thralls to do their bidding.  They've done it well, I'll give them that.  But it's impossible now to convince the majority of anything other than what is presented as correct by the television.</STRONG>

People won't believe things other than what they see on television, or the internet, or libraries, or what they can witness themselves. Primarily because to believe what goes against every shred of reality around them is absurd. If you can't stand CNN and MSNBC, then watch the BBC for something not from the United States, or even Al Jazeera if you can't stomach a western media source and want something highly critical of the United States. You can probably get BBC Radio on late night public radio, but Al Jazeera will probably require going to the Internet. Regardless, you might find that in most cases there's a pretty good consensus about what is going on in the world, other than those handful of isolated people who grumble incessantly about conspiracies no matter what.

quote:
Originally posted by Old School Gamer:
<STRONG>We are plugged in to mass media, we have an addiction to it as a nation, and as a result we do a whole hell of a lot of sitting, and absolutely no doing.</STRONG>

If all you want to do is sit around, you owe it to yourself to stand up and walk out your door. Voter turnout in the elections this year is historic, unsurpassed in the history of the nation, with interest in politics higher than ever before. When the Iraq war began, protesters stood up and poured out in cities across the country, their arguments and complaints covered by the media. Rallies are being held across the nation to challenge the government, and by the end of the year, a new leadership will be in charge. Others are taking action. You sound like you want to get left behind.

quote:
Originally posted by Old School Gamer:
<STRONG>Go out and protest on a streetcorner here, you'll get a lot of funny looks, some honks, and then you'll go home and wonder what you did it for.  You will get harassed by the police as well, and if there is a large gathering for protest, it will surely be squashed by masses of officers who think they are doing the right thing.</STRONG>

Yes, you'll get funny looks for being a lone kook on a streetcorner, and if you're bothering people the police will harass you. If you think protests are regularly squashed, then you really have to get out of the house and off of Indymedia. (Ironically, I wrote that sentence before you edited in the link to Indymedia in your post.) Do an experiment. Stop practicing the lethargy you ascribe to your countrymen, and get out and try it. Participate in a vigorous street protest, with a serious cause. Not a riot, or an illegal protest that runs out and starts disrupting bridges and cutting off streets, as that will get suppressed (and rightly so), but a real protest.

I have marched and protested. I have voted and spoken out. I have volunteered, campaigned, donated, worked in a campaign office, helped a reformer win an election, I've seen the passion and democracy at work. I have spoken out, influenced people's ideas, and won elections. It's because I'm not lethargic that I'm not deluded into thinking that everyone else is.

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Wiles

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Re: USA election system
« Reply #73 on: February 28, 2008, 10:52:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Forumsdwarf:
<STRONG>
S'ok.  I have a couple.</STRONG>

The only point I've been trying to make is that your original statement on the matter is misleading. If you read Section 13 it's about stopping hate propaganda, as they put it. Which does leave room for interpretation, which is why there is trouble with it. I don't think some of the cases involving Section 13 are in the spirit of what the law was made for.

I'm not a supporter of Section 13, I was just bothered by your oversimplification of the matter.

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Forumsdwarf

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Re: USA election system
« Reply #74 on: February 29, 2008, 12:19:00 am »

I don't see how editing out the non-toxic aspects of Section 13 constitute a misrepresentation of the toxic part, particularly since Section 13 has already been used more than once to censor the press.

If the rest of Section 13 saved kittens from trees and puppies from the pound it doesn't make its provisions for censorship any less egregious, at least from an American point-of-view.

It sounds like you're just as turned off by it as I am but don't wish to appear unpatriotic by criticizing your government too strongly to a foreigner.  I can respect that.

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