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[peasant cretin]

Uvelïggal (Beartrap) is a disarm that chains grab + bite (without waiting for the grab to register) versus the weapon hand/arm.

It's better if your character is large like a bear, given the strength advantage conferred by size. It can work just as well for medium adventurers, though you'd need to manage different stat comparisons to be effective. It's most useful against those without shields as the grab stops dodge and they can't block the bite (you can still miss of course).

[mikekchar]

Speaking of which, what does chaining without waiting actually do?  Is it like multi-attack (for example there are penalties)?  Or is there no real downside (except for not being able to react if you miss the first attack)?

[Random_Dragon]

Speaking of which, what does chaining without waiting actually do?  Is it like multi-attack (for example there are penalties)?  Or is there no real downside (except for not being able to react if you miss the first attack)?

There's basically no real penalty because it's most likely not an intended mechanic. Plus technically there isn't much penalty to doing this with the grab-and-JUMP tactic, because cancelling the jump (which you'd do if the grab attempt failed) does not consume any time. Instead you've only lost the time spent initiating and resolving the grab.

[Max™]

With dragonfall you're making use of the action of choosing to aim a jump to trigger the actual time step forward one so the grab attempt is made, and the second grab attempt seems to reduce the odds of them being able to dodge away which you get at times when you try to just jump into someone.

[skelepound]

Of course, in the real world, there is only one real secret to becoming a great fighter: Mastery of the Self. This is the art of self-denial - the art of refusing your own natural instincts and reflexes by sheer will. A man punched in the face will be knocked back, and will often clutch the injured part in pain. Mastery of ones body denies this; the punch is taken, and an immediate counter-attack must be struck. The opponent will expect you to react in this way, and will be caught off-guard by your swift counter attack. A strike to the throat with a flattened fist, and his breathing will begin to fail; quickly follow by grabbing his head, and kneeing him with maximum force in the nose. Hit hard enough and it will break, and the pain will further incapacitate him. A quick and moderately powerful kick to the knee follows, and the man will collapse. His knee injured - maybe broken - his nose almost certainly broken, and his breathing difficult, he will have no motivation to continue the fight. And if he does, he will continue to fail as long as you let your own willpower guide you - the will of the mind over the will of the body. Arbitrium super voluntatem corporis et animi.

[mikekchar]

I don't mean to be critical, because we all talk about violence in a game and do all manners of silly things with our character.  In the real world, doing what you say will get you killed.  Even if you manage to win the fight, anyone crazy enough to start an unprovoked fight with you is likely crazy enough to grab 10 friends and beat the living snot out of you after you thought you won.  Or stab you with a knife that you didn't notice.  Or shoot you when you walk away to congratulate yourself on your victory.

"best defence, is no be there".  Silly movie, but great advice.

I had friends who liked to fight in bars.  Note the past tense. YMMV.

[Random_Dragon]

I think the point that's being missed, buried in philosophical silliness, is that you need to train and practice to avoid panicking and failing around useless in a fight. What system you learn needs to become second nature, so that you don't have to actively think about how to handle a threat.

Granted, how well that helps you still depends on what you're trained to do, and what you're against. Either way, the first rule of fighting is to not fight. Failing that, the second rule is to break every other rule that you can physically, mentally, or legally get away with. XP

[skelepound]

Not always so; sometimes fighting is not just something you can do, but something you SHOULD do. If under any circumstances you witness an injustice, such as a man stealing from an innocent woman or someone being attacked by another for no apparent reason, it is the duty of men (and women) of honor to step in. Words will not stop a fleeing thief or a violent drunk. Your target must be brutally, swiftly, and mercilessly - and you must always remember that justice and the law are not always one and the same. Ttrouble, buthat is the way of a guardian of the people; one mustnt seek a fight, but when a fight is needed, one should never hesitate.

Only avoid or talk your way out of a fight that you honestly believe would put you in the wrong - if you are in the right, that is all that matters.

But to each his own.

[Ziusudra]

Disciple Caine: Master, do we seek victory in contention?
Master Kan: Seek rather not to contend.
Caine: But shall we not then be defeated?
Master Kan: We know that where there is no contention, there is neither defeat nor victory. The supple willow does not contend against the storm, yet it survives.
Master Kan: Avoid, rather than check. Check, rather than hurt. Hurt, rather than maim. Maim, rather than kill. For all life is precious, nor can any be replaced.

Unless it's an elf, to hell with those ... things.

[peasant cretin]

Disciple Caine: Master, do we seek victory in contention?
Master Kan: Seek rather not to contend.
Caine: But shall we not then be defeated?
Master Kan: We know that where there is no contention, there is neither defeat nor victory. The supple willow does not contend against the storm, yet it survives.
Master Kan: Avoid, rather than check. Check, rather than hurt. Hurt, rather than maim. Maim, rather than kill. For all life is precious, nor can any be replaced.

Yet elves eat those they've slain. The mythos of the hippie tree hugger who happens to really like the prepared livers of their enemies is weird. Or maybe that's the true normal?

[skelepound]

Elves are the second most aggresive civ in the game, and are really more offensive than goblin because, while goblins serve demon overlords and seek death and destruction, elves seem to seek control - they threaten you with sometimes deadly forces, such as unicorns and giant tigers, and will willingly go to war if you cut down too many of the trees that are on YOUR land. However, some are less offensive than others; when you can purchase exotic beasts from them, they serve a purpose - and when they bring you fruits during the spring, just after your winter supplies may have depleted, they can be of use. And when they demand something like 40 trees or less a year - we already were using less than 40 trees a year, so really, they have no effect on fortress life whatsoever. But if they ask too much - if they endanger the economy of your fortress by demanding 20 or less trees a year, they endanger the people. Because dwarves do not take orders from elves, and the moment they make an unacceptable demand, the caravan must be slaughtered. For when you fail to abide their unreasonable demands, they will attack in full force - they have made war an inevitability, and it is the duty of a good ruler to ensure that his people live. Stealing all of their shit means that you have a bunch more war animals, more food if you decide to make it a seige, and in general does good for your fortress. Sometimes they ask little of you, and it does no harm to maintain relations - but sometimes they offer nothing, and act as warmongers, and must be snuffed out for the good of all the kingdoms. And eating corpses is f****d up.

So in conclusion, if the local elves are being reasonable, and offer nice or even OK stuff, you should give them an offering once in a while, and try and have an alliance - because cool elves are hard to come by. Mostly, they need to be hammered to death.

[Random_Dragon]

Yet elves eat those they've slain. The mythos of the hippie tree hugger who happens to really like the prepared livers of their enemies is weird. Or maybe that's the true normal?

Because while to kill is an unfortunate thing, even if the enemy is an irredeemable threat to nature and to hippiekind, leaving a corpse to rot dishonors the dead in their eyes, by not returning the dead to the cycle of nature

At least, that seems to be the ethics assumption, that they'll eat the dead to avoid wasting meat, also hence why they don't have the "deliberately butcher sentients for meat" ethic like goblins.

[peasant cretin]

Actually that makes a good deal of sense. Elves, being persistent gardeners, would be preoccupied with making fertilizer.

[TheFlame52]

I've never caught the elf hate that seems to infect most of the forum. Elves are useful enough. Also, writing about Yonali Smithwings and reading about Cacame Awemedinade might have skewed my image of elfkind.

[Ziusudra]

It's really just a lame running joke that I wish I hadn't repeated in my post as it's completely derailed the thread.

That said, the elves in my current adventure world are absolutely useless. The markets are filled dozens of empty containers. The shaping trees are empty. The tavern trees have nothing but a chest full of instruments and a tavern keeper that offers no services.