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[Sensei]

What you're all really neglecting is that Gandalf (and all Tolkien wizards, and Sauron too) is not in fact human, but a cheesy race with spell-like abilities (or possible racial caster levels).

[Kadzar]

Since this seems to have become some sort of impromptu general D&D thread:

I don't know how many people keep up with this thread or are likely to watch it, but here is a video in which two DMs (one of whom is the creator of Dungeon World) talk about dungeon mastering.

This is the first part of the first installment of the series, in which they talk all about randomness, such as random rolls, random encounters, games that don't use randomness, critical hit tables, and embracing randomness. It's a very good discussion, and if you don't have time to watch it now, I encourage you to bookmark it for later.

And the second part came out. (Looks like it was only about two hours after the first, but I was asleep at the time).

This part gets a lot more into embracing chaos and using it in your games. They talk about things like building a world in play from either a top-down or bottom-up perspective, using random results to enhance your game, challenging players in different ways, and suchlike.

[Bohandas]

What you're all really neglecting is that Gandalf (and all Tolkien wizards, and Sauron too) is not in fact human, but a cheesy race with spell-like abilities (or possible racial caster levels).

I said yesterday that Gandalf was a celestial.

[Tawa]

snip

Or as someone put it along ago, Gandalf was a level 6 wizard.

No, it was put that a level six wizard was Gandalf or Tom Bombodil level awesome.

Gandalf would need to be way higher-leveled to survive that Balrog, in my opinion.

[Bauglir]

Why? The Balrog was probably only CR 6 or 7.

Also, you'll note that he did not survive it.

[mainiac]

Why? The Balrog was probably only CR 6 or 7.

Also, you'll note that he did not survive it.

The Balrog would be CR 7 if you were designing it around what it can just do but power creep and optimization in DND being what it is he'd probably be CR 20.

[Tawa]

He didn't survive, sure, but he did kill it. The Balrog had to have gotten him down to 0 HP, then he used his last standard action to kill it before dying.

...Why are we talking about this, again? Did somebody link DM of the Rings?

[My Name is Immaterial]

snip

Or as someone put it along ago, Gandalf was a level 6 wizard.  Although that was before Peter Jackson sunk his claws in.

[ggamer]

I heard some explanations for how DM's deal with off-the-wall actions in D&D, and now my interest is piqued

(It was from the Giant Bombcast, talking about "what if I saw a goblin and said 'I wanna put him in a figure four leg-lock'")

[Bohandas]

Pathfinder

more balanced

Are we talking about the same game which hasn't changed the whole "magic > everything else" problem and hasn't actually nerfed most of broken/overpowered spells?

I'm not going to deny magic has the potential to be stronger than everything else, because it does.

Pathfinder did, however, shift along the ability to break the game to about 17th level and almost no campaign starting from 1st level will reach that. On top of that, Pathfinder made it so that you can no longer have heavily armoured clerics hitting for harder than the fighter, casting more versatile spells than the wizard and binding angels to himself to fight his enemies. Clerics will pretty much only have one of those, now, and they usually don't have the first one without sacrificing a lot.

It also puts some constraints on the scarily broken stuff like wish, by at least making it have a cost regardless of the situation.

The fly spell alone breaks the game, and it is a fucking circle three spell, which is level 5 wizard/sorcerer.

It trivializes any outdoor combat situation against non-flying enemies without ranged attacks (such as Fighters and Paladins, who get to eat shit) and there are quite a lot of those.

Not indoors (excluding aduitoriums, cathedrals and other high roofed areas), indoors it just makes it easier to hit you in the twig and berries.

Or how about invisibility? Only a circle two spell!

Or how about a combination of both flight and invisibility? You only need to be a level 5 wizard/sorcerer to do that, and that combination makes you an absolute nightmare for a mundane character to deal with.

Regular invisibility ends if you attack, so it's not much use in prolonged combat unless you want to spend every other turn recasting it.

[Sergarr]

Or how about invisibility? Only a circle two spell!

Or how about a combination of both flight and invisibility? You only need to be a level 5 wizard/sorcerer to do that, and that combination makes you an absolute nightmare for a mundane character to deal with.

Regular invisibility ends if you attack, so it's not much use in prolonged combat unless you want to spend every other turn recasting it.

There are many, many ways to indirectly attack people without breaking invisibility.

"The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character's perceptions. Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area."

A properly prepared wizard would not need to break invisibility. Ever.

[Orange Wizard]

But then we can't use spellwarped Sandblast to stun for no save.

[Bohandas]

Why? The Balrog was probably only CR 6 or 7.

Also, you'll note that he did not survive it.

Hmm... the Balor demons are directly based on the Balrog, and they're around CR 20

[mainiac]

Why? The Balrog was probably only CR 6 or 7.

Also, you'll note that he did not survive it.

Hmm... the Balor demons are directly based on the Balrog, and they're around CR 20

They also are padded up with features that are appropriate to a high level dnd encounter but completely unnecessary for a Tolkein style monster.  DR15/cold iron or good?  What, 200 HP and 35 AC didn't give them enough ability to shrug off attacks?  And for that matter, 19 natural armor?  Once the natural armor is up into the double digits we are clearly dealing with artificial difficulty.  Or how about that 24 dexterity?  That giant hulking monster is quicker on his feet then Legolas on his best day apparently.

Strip away the inflated powers and you could make a Balrog with 100 HP, 10 AC and DR5/magical but it retains a wicked scary cleave attack with it's whip and the flame aura.  It would reflect the beastie tolkein style.  But a standard lowish level DND party would make mincemeat of it as soon as the wizard or cleric casts magic weapon on the rogue's or ranger's bow.  And that's assuming the archer didn't already have magical arrows.

Too bad Gandalf memorized the wrong spell that day. :/

[Bohandas]

Why? The Balrog was probably only CR 6 or 7.

Also, you'll note that he did not survive it.

Hmm... the Balor demons are directly based on the Balrog, and they're around CR 20

They also are padded up with features that are appropriate to a high level dnd encounter but completely unnecessary for a Tolkein style monster.  DR15/cold iron or good?  What, 200 HP and 35 AC didn't give them enough ability to shrug off attacks?  And for that matter, 19 natural armor?  Once the natural armor is up into the double digits we are clearly dealing with artificial difficulty.  Or how about that 24 dexterity?  That giant hulking monster is quicker on his feet then Legolas on his best day apparently.

A high level elf can have dexterity of up to 25 without magical assistance if they put all their ability boosts into dexterity